Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

[O Really]

That's the point. Seth asked, "what's it hurting?" The answer is, all of us. Sure, Roof provided an opportunity that wasn't available before. Doesn't mean that flag had any more business flying on government property before Roof than after. It just means Roof brought an awareness of what that flag means to many who previously had no clue.

[GoCubsGo]

That's the point. Seth asked, "what's it hurting?" The answer is, all of us. Sure, Roof provided an opportunity that wasn't available before. Doesn't mean that flag had any more business flying on government property before Roof than after. It just means Roof brought an awareness of what that flag means to many who previously had no clue.

Yep, and enabled those who had a clue and whose voices had been silenced in state legislatures.

and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Abraham Lincoln
November 19, 1863

[Bungalow Bill]

Not only the real racist/segregationist/white supremicists, but also those who really believe (mistakenly or not) that flag is a benign symbol of southern hospitality. Thanks to Roof, it will henceforth always be associated with the dark side.

There's a redneck outfit on US-25 outside of Traveler's Rest that has the big flag out front and sells various confederate stuff. Turns out they're on a real list of hate groups. In fact, there are, I think, 5 hate groups in Greenville county that fly the ol' stars and bars.

True. You can't blame Roof for seeing it as symbol of white
supremacy, even if it is not always meant to be that.

[Vrede too]

... A famous example of this is President Obama who at one time was quoted as saying he was against same-sex marriage. When his continued presidency was to determined by an election and his popularity was waning, suddenly, he was all for same-sex marriage. His turnabout worked; he was re-elected.

You're misstating things. He supported SSM because America had changed enough that he could. There's no evidence that it helped him win in 2012.

Now he has to save face and stick to his guns.

That's silly.

I seriously wonder his true feelings should one of his beautiful daughters announce she wanted to marry a woman.

Your question is more revealing about yourself than Obama.

My point all along has been the squabbling over past history.

Not quite. The squabbling is over the government of ALL the people honoring ugly past history.

Yes, atrocities have been committed under the banner of the Confederate flag; idiots still commit atrocities using the Confederate flag as a battle cry; the KKK also touts the American flag in their asinine displays of manliness; shouldn't then, the American flag be banned from flying atop state-owned property because the KKK is a hate/racist group?

America is many things. The Confederate flag represents two - the fight to retain past slavery and modern racism.

... Why isn't there a great clamoring to remove those likenesses from our money?

Ummm, there is, beginning with the genocidal Andrew Jackson.
http://blueridgedebate.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=180

IT'S ANCIENT HISTORY!

I remember Jim Crow and King's assassination.

Removing the Confederate flag is not going to end hatred and bitterness as long as mankind inhabits this rock we live on; something will replace it; it's human nature.

Again, the discussion is about government endorsing it, as O Really says and has been explained over and over.

[Vrede too]

And while I'm in this thread ...

Complaining about this forum seems to be your chief topic. How's that working out for you?

Now the last question: where's all the members listed in the membership roll? Besides saying "they couldn't take it", somebody explain the real reason they're no longer posting; what couldn't they take? And why? (3 questions)

People leave for a variety of reasons. Our main problem is the lack of a mechanism to recruit new ones.

[Vrede too]

Sheesh. What is it hurting? Why does a murderer suddenly become a hero for it's demise when it's been around for years and years? There wasn't an urgent effort to take it down before; dissent, yes, urgency no.

People work for years and then take advantage when an event makes victory possible. That's how change works.

Face it; unwittingly (thanks Mr.B) that twit in the photo has become a hero to the anti-flaggers....

Goofy (thanks Mr.B).

Thomas Edwin Blanton, Jr.; Herman Frank Cash; Robert Edward Chambliss; and Bobby Frank Cherry also contributed to the death of Jim Crow, but no one calls them heroes and no one will ever call Dylann Roof a "hero". He just epitomizes a problem that people have been working on for years and it would be a disservice to the fallen to not seize every form of progress that can be achieved before the apathetic middle moves on to thinking about something else....

[O Really]

True history of Confederate flag...
http://www.dailykos.com/blog/comics

[Vrede too]

Bree Newsome (SC flag striker): In Her Own Words

Now is the time for true courage.

[Seth Milner]

... A famous example of this is President Obama who at one time was quoted as saying he was against same-sex marriage. When his continued presidency was to determined by an election and his popularity was waning, suddenly, he was all for same-sex marriage. His turnabout worked; he was re-elected.
You're misstating things. He supported SSM because America had changed enough that he could. There's no evidence that it helped him win in 2012.
There's no evidence that it didn't help him win either. Without any evidence either way, you too are misstating things.

Now he has to save face and stick to his guns.
That's silly.
Maybe. But without the aforementioned evidence, we really don't know, do we? Opinion polls were showing low numbers for his continued presidency; he does the about-face, opinion poll figures rise, he's re-elected. He has nothing to fear now but his popularity; why change his stance now?

I seriously wonder his true feelings should one of his beautiful daughters announce she wanted to marry a woman.
Your question is more revealing about yourself than Obama.
I'm puzzled by your reply. What is that supposed to mean?

My point all along has been the squabbling over past history.
Not quite. The squabbling is over the government of ALL the people honoring ugly past history.
Of course much of our past history was ugly; but it happened, we can't just sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. In case you've never noticed, the flag of the United States is required to fly on a higher flagpole than any other flag that is flying anywhere on the same grounds. That in itself proves which flag stands for the people.; One Nation, Indivisible! Flying the Confederate flag in no way threatens our nation; it's a piece of history that represented a divide nation; ugly history for sure, but removing the flag is not going to erase the past nor will leaving it will bring back or encourage another Civil War.

Yes, atrocities have been committed under the banner of the Confederate flag; idiots still commit atrocities using the Confederate flag as a battle cry; the KKK also touts the American flag in their asinine displays of manliness; shouldn't then, the American flag be banned from flying atop state-owned property because the KKK is a hate/racist group?
America is many things. The Confederate flag represents two - the fight to retain past slavery and modern racism.
A Confederate flag is responsible for modern racism? Come on! I saw some Black people on TV news this morning who were laughing at all those demonstrators over the flag issue. "That flag's been there for years and ain't hurt nobody yet, and if it's left there where it's at, it still ain't going to hurt nobody. It sure ain't hurt me or anybody I know."

... Why isn't there a great clamoring to remove those likenesses from our money?
Ummm, there is, beginning with the genocidal Andrew Jackson.
He was one of the despised ones I spoke of; but if I'm not mistaken, the notion to replace photos on our currency was being tossed around long before this flag squabble.

IT'S ANCIENT HISTORY!
I remember Jim Crow and King's assassination.
So? I remember a number of events in past history; but I don't harp on them.
There's people that's still feuding, cussing, and taunting over the North defeating the South, and that's as silly as this flag issue.

[O Really]

For a media guy, I would think you'd be more attuned to the power of symbolism, Seth. Nobody is saying the battle flag of Northern Virginia "is responsible for" racism. But it has been used consistently by white supremacists of all sorts. Other than in true historical use, such as battlefields, museums, etc. it almost always represents rebellion - which, in the case of the American South consistently involved white supremacy and segregation. I'm not saying that everybody who chooses to fly that flag is racist, but certainly a lot are. Enough so that it shouldn't be flown officially by a governmental unit or incorporated into a state flag.

As to "taunting" over a US victory over an armed insurrection, I can say this based largely on my personal life experience: growing up in PA, NY, and MD, I could not have cared less who won or lost the Civil War in relation to present time. It was never an issue. But sure - when you have people who want to re-write history and rave on about southern superiority, then yeah, he'll get some pushback and reminder of who had their asses handed to them (eventually).

[Seth Milner]

And while I'm in this thread ...
Complaining about this forum seems to be your chief topic. How's that working out for you?
No, it's not been my chief topic, the flag squabbles has; although I have commented on the same subject previously. I really didn't expect to receive a reply, but was somewhat surprised to get a taunt. I received seven PM's from some whom I have not seen posting, but I found their names in the membership rolls. Their messages all pretty much said the same; so after reading those messages, I'm no longer surprised I got a taunt from you. Your popularity is overwhelming and, obviously contagious to those who side with your opinions.

Now the last question: where's all the members listed in the membership roll? Besides saying "they couldn't take it", somebody explain the real reason they're no longer posting; what couldn't they take? And why? (3 questions)
People leave for a variety of reasons. Our main problem is the lack of a mechanism to recruit new ones.
You said that before, as well as stating the main problem, but I doubt the veracity of the main problem part.

[Vrede too]

... A famous example of this is President Obama who at one time was quoted as saying he was against same-sex marriage. When his continued presidency was to determined by an election and his popularity was waning, suddenly, he was all for same-sex marriage. His turnabout worked; he was re-elected.

You're misstating things. He supported SSM because America had changed enough that he could. There's no evidence that it helped him win in 2012.

There's no evidence that it didn't help him win either. Without any evidence either way, you too are misstating things.

You failed both logic and debate, didn't you?

Beyond that, which makes more sense to you - that a young, progressive, urban organizer was lying in 2008 in order to get elected, or that he was lying in 2012 for no discernible reason since gays and liberals were going to vote for him, anyhow?

Now he has to save face and stick to his guns.

That's silly.

Maybe. But without the aforementioned evidence, we really don't know, do we? Opinion polls were showing low numbers for his continued presidency; he does the about-face, opinion poll figures rise, he's re-elected. He has nothing to fear now but his popularity; why change his stance now?

Still silly, his poll numbers were never that bad, the Republicans chewed each other up . . . and Mitten. You need to look up the difference between correlation and causation.

I seriously wonder his true feelings should one of his beautiful daughters announce she wanted to marry a woman.

Your question is more revealing about yourself than Obama.

I'm puzzled by your reply. What is that supposed to mean?

That YOU would blow a gasket and think less of your child or grandchild if one of them turned out to be gay, duh. You're projecting your own bias upon Obama with zero evidence.

My point all along has been the squabbling over past history.

Not quite. The squabbling is over the government of ALL the people honoring ugly past history.

Of course much of our past history was ugly; but it happened, we can't just sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened. In case you've never noticed, the flag of the United States is required to fly on a higher flagpole than any other flag that is flying anywhere on the same grounds. That in itself proves which flag stands for the people.; One Nation, Indivisible! Flying the Confederate flag in no way threatens our nation; it's a piece of history that represented a divide nation; ugly history for sure, but removing the flag is not going to erase the past nor will leaving it will bring back or encourage another Civil War.

Spoken like a true old white guy from Idaho. You never answered my question about what you did about the Aryan Nations. Slaver history belongs in a museum and you're pretending that you don't know as well as us that it's only flying at the Capitol because of modern racism stretching back 60 some years.

Yes, atrocities have been committed under the banner of the Confederate flag; idiots still commit atrocities using the Confederate flag as a battle cry; the KKK also touts the American flag in their asinine displays of manliness; shouldn't then, the American flag be banned from flying atop state-owned property because the KKK is a hate/racist group?

America is many things. The Confederate flag represents two - the fight to retain past slavery and modern racism.

A Confederate flag is responsible for modern racism? Come on! I saw some Black people on TV news this morning who were laughing at all those demonstrators over the flag issue. "That flag's been there for years and ain't hurt nobody yet, and if it's left there where it's at, it still ain't going to hurt nobody. It sure ain't hurt me or anybody I know."

I didn't say "responsible". Are you illiterate or are pathetic straw men all you've got left? I see, you found some token blacks to back you up. Congrats.

... Why isn't there a great clamoring to remove those likenesses from our money?

Ummm, there is, beginning with the genocidal Andrew Jackson.

He was one of the despised ones I spoke of; but if I'm not mistaken, the notion to replace photos on our currency was being tossed around long before this flag squabble.

Sigh, I linked you the current movement, and it's already achieved mixed success. You conveniently deleted the link when supposedly quoting me. Just admit that you picked a poor example and that your argument fell apart.

Besides, as I've said several times and you conveniently ignore, people work on things for years and seize the moment when opportunity arises. 9 blacks were slaughtered by a slaver flag toting, rational, white supremacist and all you can whine about is the poor widdle flag.

The slaver flag is just a winnable starting point and that's why white supremacists, witting and unwitting, are throwing a hissy fit.

They've lost, utterly, just as you apologists for them have lost. All people were campaigning on were the state actions - flags at the Capitol, license plates, etc. The businesses and TV Land made their choices without anyone telling them they should. That's how great the revulsion is over the church massacre, something you're apparently oblivious to.

IT'S ANCIENT HISTORY!

I remember Jim Crow and King's assassination.

So? I remember a number of events in past history; but I don't harp on them.
There's people that's still feuding, cussing, and taunting over the North defeating the South, and that's as silly as this flag issue.

Wussy dodge, your "ANCIENT" just got blown out of the water.

Symbols matter. You were either never an investigative journalist, or you weren't very good at it. (edit: as O Really also notes)

Post and response removed and ignored by you:

Removing the Confederate flag is not going to end hatred and bitterness as long as mankind inhabits this rock we live on; something will replace it; it's human nature.

Again, the discussion is about government endorsing it, as O Really says and has been explained over and over.

I wonder why?

[Vrede too]

.... I received seven PM's from some whom I have not seen posting, but I found their names in the membership rolls....

Your whiny con radar didn't alert? Imagine that. Thanks for outing their cowardly lurking and ongoing butthurt, though. It's what I thought.

You never answered my question.

Complaining about this forum seems to be your chief topic (maybe after defending the slaver flag, now). How's that working out for you?

And, a corollary to it - Almost since your arrival, just after you whined about O Really supposedly calling you a coward, you've chosen to make your discussions with me as much about me as about the issue at hand. So, what exactly is your agenda?

[homerfobe]

Greetings in the name of the Confederate flags flying everywhere! Hey Vrede doo-doo, tell us where you live and I'll pay to have the biggest damn confederate flag I can find erected in full view of your house. It'll help relieve your constipation pains.
Look out Seth Millner, the shit's about to hit the fan. You done went and pissed off the greatest mind of this forum by badmouthing tolerant Christians. Now your about to discover why everyone left this poor piece of shit forum. It's dominated by an opinionated asshole who himself is most intolerant of opposing opinions. I would have replied to your questions too but I thought a reply here where everyone could see it would be better than a secret PM. Everyone else already knows that Vrede doo doo is nothing but a gloryseeking faggot that thinks everyone should bow down to him. Banninations got what, 9 maybe, regular posters left, and he's too stupid to see, don't really care, or is afraid to do anything about what Vrede doo-doo has done and is still doing to his forum. Hey Vrede doo-doo, I'm complaining and whining about your stupid ass and my whiny con radar is on full faggot detection and you set it off. How about them apples, dipshit?

[billy.pilgrim]

I wonder if Seth feels as strongly about the swastika. Various cultures have used this symbol - often to mean good luck.

Prior to the Nazis taking it over, it was a popular symbol in this country and Europe
but like this idiotic flag controversy, the meaning changed and is now purely a symbol of hate

[Mr.B]

"You were either never an investigative journalist, or you weren't very good at it."

"Look out Seth Millner, the sh*t's about to hit the fan. You done went and pissed off the greatest mind of this forum"

Yep, he's the greatest mind in his own mind; a real legend !

I was wondering how long it would be before Vrede would be trashing ol' Seth; didn't take long, did it?

Just as soon as Vrede discovers someone won't bow and grovel to him, well, .... y'all know.
(That's OK, he has plenty of followers in his stable anyway; his "mechanism for recruiting" is shot all to hell )

[billy.pilgrim]

damn Verde, it appears you could say, "good morning" and be charged with an attack post.

[Mr.B]

"damn Verde, it appears you could say, "good morning" and be charged with an attack post."

You know his saying "good morning" in a forum is not part of his vocabulary; your statement is useless.

Are you saying Vrede's response to Seth Milner is not an attack ... directly or subtly?

[Seth Milner]

I was wondering how long it would be before Vrede would be trashing ol' Seth; didn't take long, did it?

Let's say, at this point, I'm beginning to see the handwriting on the wall. Vrede too and O Really are the only two that I'm "debating" with, and both are rather, how did you put it? Condescending?, although O Really comes across much milder and appears to be the more intelligent of the two.

"You were either never an investigative journalist, or you weren't very good at it."

Vrede too constantly plays offense, and is always ready to taunt and insult rather than present an informed and intelligent reply.

.... I received seven PM's from some whom I have not seen posting, but I found their names in the membership rolls....

Your whiny con radar didn't alert? Imagine that. Thanks for outing their cowardly lurking and ongoing butthurt, though. It's what I thought. You never answered my question.

Complaining about this forum seems to be your chief topic (maybe after defending the slaver flag, now). How's that working out for you?

And, a corollary to it - Almost since your arrival, just after you whined about O Really supposedly calling you a coward, you've chosen to make your discussions with me as much about me as about the issue at hand. So, what exactly is your agenda?

I have no agenda. It appears you are the one with the agenda. You started on me with some sort of crack about my past, and it's slowly been building since. I didn't "whine" about O Really supposedly calling me a coward; I questioned it. (The word whining appears to be one of your favorite insults; among many, of course.)

You say I'm picking on you; who's whining now? . . . you asked how that's working out for me (twice); now you know. I know now why there's so much animosity against you . . . Quote: You're reaping what you've sowed. (how's that working out for you?)

I guess now I'm on your list; that's no problem. There's too many fish here with my name on them, for me to be worrying with you.
Best wishes to you; I'm certain you have more enemies than friends. Sad.

[Vrede too]

Even Bubba don't want the slaver flag.