Tree Hugger Thread

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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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Premier tonight, PBS, 2200:
Containment

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How can we contain some of the deadliest, most long-lasting substances ever produced? Toxic remnants from the Cold War remain in millions of gallons of highly radioactive sludge, thousands of acres of radioactive land, tens of thousands of unused hot buildings, and some slowly spreading deltas of contaminated groundwater. Governments around the world, desperate to protect future generations, have begun imagining society 10,000 years from now in order to create warning monuments that will speak across time to mark waste repositories.

Containment moves from a nuclear weapon facility in South Carolina where toxic swamps have led to radioactive animals, to a deep underground burial site in New Mexico, to Fukushima, Japan, where a triple meltdown occurred after the cooling systems at the Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant were interrupted, leaving that city a ghost town. The film is part graphic novel and part observational essay mixed with sci-fi that is more science than fiction, weaving between an uneasy present and an imaginative, troubled distant future, exploring the struggle to keep waste confined over millennia.
Liquid Radioactive Waste Convoys Threaten Great Lakes (and everywhere from Ontario to South Carolina)
“One liter of [this material] would be sufficient to ruin an entire city’s water supply.”
— Dr. Gordon Edwards, Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility
By the Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility
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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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Vrede too wrote:“One liter of [this material] would be sufficient to ruin an entire city’s water supply.”
Which is how you know that you're not dealing with a credible source. Dump one liter of [this material] in a major lake or river and it gets diluted to irrelevance.

Back before the Cassini probe was launched there were similar claims that a launch failure could spread enough radioactive material to kill tens of thousands of people. Claims which were based on magically dividing up the radioactive material evenly and delivering it to each person, none wasted in the sky or ground or uneven distribution or only people. And assuming that exposure was automatically fatal.

Someone ran the numbers for a burning car using the same assumptions - all the poisonous fumes being distributed evenly the same way - and found a similar death toll. In the couple decades since, we've had probably a couple cars a day burn here in Winnipeg alone.

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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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Gordon Edwards

Gordon Edwards was born in Canada in 1940, and graduated from the University of Toronto in 1961 with a gold medal in Mathematics and Physics and a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship. At the University of Chicago he obtained two master's degrees, one in Mathematics (1962) and one in English Literature (1964). In 1972, he obtained a Ph.D. in Mathematics from Queen's University.

From 1970 to 1974, he was the editor of Survival magazine. In 1975 he co-founded the Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility, and has been its president since 1978. Edwards has worked widely as a consultant on nuclear issues and has been qualified as a nuclear expert by courts in Canada and elsewhere.

In 1972-73, Dr. Edwards was the Assistant Director of a nationwide study of the Mathematical Sciences in Canada conducted under the auspices of the Science Council of Canada.

Dr. Edwards has written articles and reports on radiation standards, radioactive wastes, uranium mining, nuclear proliferation, the economics of nuclear power, non-nuclear energy strategies. He has been featured on radio and television programs including David Suzuki's The Nature of Things, Pierre Berton's The Great Debate, and many others. He has worked as consultant for governmental bodies such as the Auditor General of Canada, the Select Committee on Ontario Hydro Affairs, and the Ontario Royal Commission on Electric Power Planning. In 2006, Edwards received the Nuclear-Free Future Award. He has also been awarded the Rosalie Bertell Lifetime Achievement Award and the YMCA Peacemaker Medallion. He is a retired teacher of mathematics and science at Vanier College in Montreal.
Hmmm, seems like "a credible source" to me, even if only part of his education was in the US :P . Your relevant credentials? Other than in the header, that quote does not appear in the article. So, you don't know what the context or parameters are. "major lake or river" and everything you built upon it are purely your own invention.

He uses the phrase or something like it in many articles on the Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility website. In this Submission to the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission: Application from Bruce Power to Transport Radioactive Steam Generators under Special Arrangement and Exclusive Use on the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River he discusses in detail "St. Catharines and surrounding towns" that take their "drinking water from the Welland Canal (providing a water supply for about 165,000 people)" and says:
The amount of water available in a lock for dilution was estimated at 91 million litres, much smaller than nearshore Great Lakes (45 billion litres) and Owen Sound harbour (2.5 billion litres), so it is expected that the concentrations of radioactivity from an accident would be very high in a lock. And the results bear this out: an accident in a lock with only one generator (and using most conservative assumptions 1% release rate and partial inventory) results in the highest amount of radioactivity of all accident scenarios, 1.64 mSv, well above the Health Canada drinking water Action Level of 1 mSv (CNSC staff report, Appendix A, page 9­10).
In other words, this highly credible source anticipates your objection, acknowledges that it sometimes applies but dismisses it since it's not relevant in all situations.

Also, the radwaste is not going to be shipped one liter at a time. So, a spill can easily contaminate a much higher volume water supply than this one example. "100 to 150 truck-loads of liquid waste . . . The liquid in question is now stored in a large double-walled tank called FSST (Fissile Solutions Storage Tank) at Chalk River, Ontario, containing 23,000 liters (6,000 gallons) of an intensely radioactive and highly dangerous acidic solution (my original link, not positive that's the total being shipped)" means at least 153-230 liters per truck. How big does a water supply have to be before you'd be comfortable dumping that much of "dozens of (highly) radioactive compounds" in it?
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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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Having degrees in Math and English Lit helps, but there are plenty of equally credible people who disagree with him.

You don't need a degree to know that a litre of material is going to be massively diluted in Shoal Lake or the Red River (in Winnipeg's case) or Lake Ontario (in Toronto's case).

Given that the shipping containers are the sort they've done all sorts of extreme crash tests on, yes, I feel safer returning the radioactive material to the US for reprocessing than leaving it abandoned - indefinitely - in a tank in Chalk River after the facility shuts down. Sure, Bob will be on guard with a phone number he can call if anything goes wrong. But I don't think that's good enough.

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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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Vrede too wrote:In this Submission to the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission: Application from Bruce Power to Transport Radioactive Steam Generators under Special Arrangement and Exclusive Use on the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River he discusses in detail "St. Catharines and surrounding towns" that take their "drinking water from the Welland Canal (providing a water supply for about 165,000 people)" and says:
The amount of water available in a lock for dilution was estimated at 91 million litres, much smaller than nearshore Great Lakes (45 billion litres) and Owen Sound harbour (2.5 billion litres), so it is expected that the concentrations of radioactivity from an accident would be very high in a lock. And the results bear this out: an accident in a lock with only one generator (and using most conservative assumptions 1% release rate and partial inventory) results in the highest amount of radioactivity of all accident scenarios, 1.64 mSv, well above the Health Canada drinking water Action Level of 1 mSv (CNSC staff report, Appendix A, page 9­10).
That's a separate issue - solid equipment which won't seep into the water table or dilute in a lake, river or canal.

Their worse possible scenario raises the water's radioactivity level to 1.64 mSv, where even the NORMAL acceptable guideline is 1 mSv. And that's PER YEAR. I don't think the generator would be left in the canal for that long.

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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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rstrong wrote:Having degrees in Math and English Lit helps, but there are plenty of equally credible people who disagree with him.

The rigors of science, plus work on the issue for nearly 40 years, plus the relevant government posts, plus "qualified as a nuclear expert by courts in Canada and elsewhere." He may be wrong, but you screwed up with "not dealing with a credible source" and you've ducked offering up your relevant credentials that create the basis for your charge.

You don't need a degree to know that a litre of material is going to be massively diluted in Shoal Lake or the Red River (in Winnipeg's case) or Lake Ontario (in Toronto's case).

:roll: Again, you're creating straw men while ignoring the scenario he did refer to.

Given that the shipping containers are the sort they've done all sorts of extreme crash tests on,

These won't necessarily be spent fuel casks and I'll bet you're talking off the top of your head without looking up what containers they will use or their safety and performance level. Regardless, rational people opt for the safest option, not the most dangerous one of long distance transportation.

yes, I feel safer returning the radioactive material to the US for reprocessing than leaving it abandoned - indefinitely - in a tank in Chalk River after the facility shuts down.

That's not what would be done, see below.

Sure, Bob will be on guard with a phone number he can call if anything goes wrong. But I don't think that's good enough.
:roll: :roll: :roll: You tried that dishonest whole cloth invention before, page 13. Then, you ignored the response:
Vrede too wrote:Bullshit.

It would never be "abandoned" with just "a security guard" unless Canadians are idiots, and active site work from continuing operations and decommissioning is going to take many, many years.

"leaked"? What part of DRY cask storage as Chalk River is already doing was unclear to you?
You're also ignoring what's plainly stated in my original link:
... the waste was never intended to be moved in liquid form....

There are safer, faster and cheaper ways of dealing with the waste that have already been used in Canada and elsewhere.... “There are 20 other tanks of liquid radioactive waste at Chalk River, whose contents are being solidified and stored on-site as solid waste,” said Dr. Ole Hendrickson of the Concerned Citizens of Renfrew County. Moreover, since 2003, the liquid waste that would have previously gone into the FSST tank has been routinely solidified, and up until 2011, Chalk River Laboratories was committed to solidifying the liquid contents of the FSST tank as well.”

Exactly when are you hallucinating that this "Bob will be on guard with a phone number he can call if anything goes wrong" idiocy will occur?

Tom Clements, Director of Savannah River Site Watch in South Carolina, observed that “The safest and cheapest way to address proliferation concerns is to eliminate the weapons-grade uranium at Chalk River by down-blending it, leaving only low enriched uranium, which is not nuclear-weapons-usable material. In February 2016, Indonesia was given permission to down-blend its stock of US-made liquid weapons-grade uranium, thereby eliminating any need to transport the material back to the US.

The same can be done with the Chalk River liquid waste, as was explicitly delineated by Canadian authorities in 2011. The Indonesian down-blending operation is already completed, just a few months after US Department of Energy permission was given....
Are you saying that Canada is less technologically adept and more cavalier with human and environmental safety than both the US and Indonesia?
rstrong wrote:That's a separate issue

Like your "major lake or river ... Shoal Lake or the Red River (in Winnipeg's case) or Lake Ontario (in Toronto's case)" straw men?

Anyhow, it was just an example I found of his about how a city's water supply could be wrecked and you haven't offered anything besides very, very large bodies of water in denying the possibility. Your just not in a position to challenge his assertion unless you know his theoretical city and water source. For example, Hendersonville has both an interstate leading towards SC and gets its water from the puny Mills River. Multiply our vulnerability by thousands along the route.


- solid equipment which won't seep into the water table or dilute in a lake, river or canal.

You've got it bass ackwards. A solid source is easier to contain and retrieve than liquid waste, and these generators will have had the nastiest stuff, solid and liquid, removed from them.

Their worse possible scenario raises the water's radioactivity level to 1.64 mSv, where even the NORMAL acceptable guideline is 1 mSv. And that's PER YEAR.
If all the total radioactive inventory of one steam generator is released, this would exceed the Health Canada Action level for intervention in the event of a nuclear emergency by two times (2.52 mSv vs. 1 mSv action level)....

It is also important to note that the Health Canada’s Action Levels of 1 mSv are ten times higher than the dose limit used to set provincial and federal drinking water levels (0.1 mSv). So the environmental impacts in these accident scenarios are being compared against the less stringent number. If comparisons are made against the more stringent drinking water guidelines, all environmental impacts increase by a factor of 10. This further illustrates the potential for significant drinking water impacts in a generator accident scenario.
Canada doesn't wait a year to declare a nuclear emergency, does it?

I don't think the generator would be left in the canal for that long.

Liquid waste can't be removed from the water. For a city with a small enough source the people are poisoned or the system is shut down for a long time. In a not outrageous scenario the spill occurs, some people are poisoned, the system is shut down and all of it, including residential plumbing, has to be replaced.
Are you okay? You're usually much better with logic, looking things up, addressing the material at hand and citing contrary credible sources.
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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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U.S. Department of Energy January 2017 U.S. Energy and Employment Report

According to Beyond Nuclear:
Solar and wind energy jobs far outstrip declining nuclear

The U.S. Department of Energy has released its January 2017 U.S. Energy and Employment Report and solar energy tops the charts in employment numbers, far outstripping nuclear energy. Solar currently employs 373,807 while nuclear sits at 68,176 and remains in a slight decline. Even so, the DOE admits that, given data collection limitations, the solar numbers might be higher. "Existing labor market data therefore dramatically underestimate the additional workers engaged in solar-related work," the report said. Wind energy employment is at 101,738, bested only by solar and by natural gas at 362,118 jobs. "The solar workforce increased by 25% in 2016, while wind employment increased by 32%," the report states. Energy efficiency employment numbers were also hard to collect, but at least "2.2 million Americans are employed, in whole or in part, in the design, installation, and manufacture of Energy Efficiency products and services, adding 133,000 jobs in 2016," said the report.
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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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Re: Tree Hugger Thread

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I don't know a lot about Neil Gorsuch yet, but I remember well how evil his mother was.

Trump’s Supreme Court pick, and his (in)famous mother
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H.R.861 - To terminate the Environmental Protection Agency.

Sponsor: Rep. Gaetz, Matt [R-FL-1] (Introduced 02/03/2017)

:roll:
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This incredible ‘Vertical Forest’ is being built right now in China

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Milan, Italy vertical forest, completed in 2014:

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That is so cool!
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Senate on track to confirm Scott Pruitt as EPA administrator

Senate Republicans are poised to use their majority to confirm President Donald Trump’s nominee to lead the Environmental Protection Agency, despite calls from Democrats for a delay.

A vote on Scott Pruitt’s nomination is set for Friday afternoon. As part of a public records lawsuit, a state judge in Oklahoma on Thursday ordered Pruitt to release thousands of emails that he exchanged with oil and gas executives by next week. Pruitt, who is Oklahoma’s attorney general, has refused to release the emails for more than two years.

Democrats boycotted a committee vote on Pruitt’s nomination last month, citing his refusal to hand over the emails, and on Thursday called on Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., to delay Pruitt’s confirmation vote until the nominee turns over the thousands of requested emails from his time as attorney general.

Republican leaders, however, have shown no signs they intend to wait for the documents to be released before voting to confirm him.

“Scott Pruitt is the most thoroughly vetted nominee we’ve ever had to lead this agency,” said Sen. John Barrasso, R-Wyo., chairman of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee....

Not counting the emails that he's been illegally hiding.

So far, Sen. Susan Collins of Maine is the lone Republican saying she will vote against Pruitt.

Hero.

Her no vote could be canceled out by Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin of coal-dependent West Virginia, who is expected to cross party lines to support Trump’s pick.

Anti-hero.

... So far, the Senate has confirmed 13 out of 22 Trump Cabinet or Cabinet-level picks requiring confirmation....

Just one, Puzder, has been forced to withdraw. 13-1 is a rout, the Mercy Rule would be invoked in children's sports.
Multiple groups are urging IMMEDIATE calls to Senators.
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Vrede too wrote:Not counting the emails that he's been illegally hiding.
Now we know why they were illegally hidden, and why the GOP rushed the vote rather than wait just a few days.

EPA chief Pruitt’s newly released emails show deep ties to fossil fuel interests

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Trump Guts Protections for Wetlands, Endangered Species

Senate confirms Ryan Zinke as interior secretary

Center for Biological Diversity:
Ryan Zinke was confirmed Wednesday as interior secretary, placing him in charge of protecting more than 1,500 endangered species, managing 500 million acres of public lands and overseeing many of the country's oil, gas and coal reserves.

During his two years in Congress, Zinke earned a 3 percent rating from the League of Conservation Voters and voted against protections for endangered species 100 percent of the time, including opposing safeguards for African elephants, gray wolves and sage grouse. Zinke has also voted to place the interests of fossil fuels above all else when it comes to the management of public lands.

"Ryan Zinke has no business being secretary of the interior," said the Center's director, Kierán Suckling.
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