Non-Trump Republicans

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Vrede too
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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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O Really wrote:I take it the mail wanted a contribution? ...
They all do. It's not a group I've donated to.

Is it possible that a Hillary, Senate, House losses and even Trump chastened GOP will start acting like adults in their own interest? I'm not even getting my hopes up about that, either.
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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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Vrede too wrote: Is it possible that a Hillary, Senate, House losses and even Trump chastened GOP will start acting like adults in their own interest? I'm not even getting my hopes up about that, either.
One would think. But then we have to look at what they did after having their asses handed to them in the Presidential race in 2012. They did a very thorough analysis of weaknesses, prepared detailed plans for addressing those weaknesses, and then promptly ignored them in toto. In fact, did what they had been doing except worse. I think we're just going to have to wait for them to die out.

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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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I think that little will change unless we can end partisan gerrymandering and limit the money in politics. The system being an asshole is a bigger problem than the assholes.
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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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Vrede too wrote:I think that little will change unless we can end partisan gerrymandering and limit the money in politics. The system being an asshole is a bigger problem than the assholes.
I agree to ending gerrymandering, and support laws requiring that all districts be drawn basically by a computer run by a Canadian. But that's only a symptom of the problem. Gerrymandering has been around since 18-something, but has not been abused as widely and egregiously as the current batch of Republicans has done. And while I am outraged by Citizens United I'm not sure I know how one could run a national or even decent local campaign without money - lots of it. But if limits on individuals and organizations were enforced, it would help. Probably help if all donations were readily available public access, too. I suppose there could be total public funding, but you'd have to set some fairly high eligibility standards. Speaking of which, I see Johnson and Stein are hovering down in the 2-6% level, way below what would be eligible to make the debates - or get public funding. I saw a comment I thought was right-one. Said as much as people talk about more choices and third/fourth parties, nobody really wants to leave the two-party system, because with Trump and Hillary at the top of the two major parties, if the others can't get any traction this year, they're never going to do it. Sometimes I wonder if I should see if my relatives in my Mom's side would take in Lady O and me and we'll just move to York until we're gone or the last of the right-wing yahoos is gone, whichever comes first.

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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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People will always be assholes. The best we can do is create structural and systemic controls that limit their assholery.

I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion from Johnson and Stein's poll numbers. Many, many people want to leave the two-party system, that's why so many of us are unaffiliated. The low poll numbers reflect the fact that our non-parliamentary system makes that impractical. Any real 3rd party threat gets quickly co-opted in our non-proportional system, so voters are forced to pick the lessor asshole or accept being irrelevant.
Always be yourself! Unless you can be a goat, then always be a goat.
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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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Vrede too wrote:
I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion from Johnson and Stein's poll numbers. Many, many people want to leave the two-party system, that's why so many of us are unaffiliated. The low poll numbers reflect the fact that our non-parliamentary system makes that impractical. Any real 3rd party threat gets quickly co-opted in our non-proportional system, so voters are forced to pick the lessor asshole or accept being irrelevant.
Wasn't my conclusion, I just agreed with the writer. But if there was much of a real groundswell for more parties, there would be more activity in doing the things that would get them more members. Like winning smaller elections - city council, school board, maybe a Congressional seat. Become a credible alternative. Don't get caught proposing things like the crowd of Libertarians was doing at their convention. Don't nominate somebody who doesn't know what a Leppo is. Don't be single- or limited-issue.

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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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Most city councils and almost all school boards are nonpartisan, and Bernie (I) is in the Senate. People, including me, have worked for 3rd parties, but they always hit that brick wall in our winner take all system. I think you're wrong in thinking that it can be somehow be done without a parliamentary system.
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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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The NDP is the perpetual third party here in Canada. They've never won a federal election, and only once won second place as the official opposition.

But that's irrelevant. They've had a MAJOR influence on Canadian policy. They popularize the ideas that the main parties choose to ignore. When one of their policies shows signs of popularity, the other parties adopt it. Our health care system originated with the NDP and was adopted by the Conservatives.

They've been the tie-breakers on many votes, so the others HAVE TO cooperate with them. Their cooperation is often also needed to form a minority government. That's when neither the Conservatives nor the Liberals get a majority of seats in Parliament, so they need to make a deal with the NDP form a government.

Of course the NDP has competent, credible leadership with experience as Members of Parliament or elected positions in Provincial politics.

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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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Vrede too wrote:Most city councils and almost all school boards are nonpartisan, and Bernie (I) is in the Senate. People, including me, have worked for 3rd parties, but they always hit that brick wall in our winner take all system. I think you're wrong in thinking that it can be somehow be done without a parliamentary system.
Look at the teabaggers and the poorly and ridiculously named "Freedom Caucus" and how much influence they have. That's 40 out of 435 House members. If the Libertarians/Greens/Vredistas, whoever, get some people elected they'll get some influence. But they're not going to be able to start at the top and be successful.

Besides, Bernie isn't a third party. He may have worn an "I" but he walked and quacked like a Dem.

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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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O Really wrote:... Besides, Bernie isn't a third party. He may have worn an "I" but he walked and quacked like a Dem.
That's how you can tell that he's not a Dem. :P

I'm saying it's never gonna happen and can't happen. The teabaggers and the poorly and ridiculously named "Freedom Caucus" have had enormous impact on the GOP - 2016 is the result - but almost none of them would have won on an exclusively TP ticket.

It's only in a parliamentary system that the Vredaneros will be successful . . . and only then will goat lives matter.
Always be yourself! Unless you can be a goat, then always be a goat.
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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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I'd prefer a multi-party system, but really, up until relatively recently two parties did pretty well because they each had some internal diversity. Big difference in Goldwater and N. Rockefeller. Particularly at a state level you could get a whole political spectrum out of even one party. Dems still have at least some modicum of diversity, but the Republicans have pretty much purged everybody that doesn't fit a narrow ideological mold.

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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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Vrede too wrote:... It's only in a parliamentary system that the Vredaneros will be successful . . . and only then will goat lives matter.
Upstart Pirate Party senses victory in (tomorrow's) Iceland elections

The past few years have been stormy for Iceland, a country threatened by volcanoes and brought low by bankers. Now, Icelanders are thinking of putting their trust in pirates.

The Pirate Party, an anti-authoritarian band of buccaneers that wants to shift power from government to people, is one of the front-runners in an election triggered by financial scandal in a country still recovering from economic catastrophe in 2008.

Polls suggest the party — formed in 2012 by a group of anarchists, hackers and internet-freedom activists — is supported by as many as one in five voters and could emerge from Saturday's parliamentary election at the head of a new government. Pirate policies — including public vetoes over new laws and strict safeguards for individuals' online and offline privacy — have dominated the election debate....

Single parties rarely win outright in Iceland's multiparty electoral system. Saturday's vote is likely to produce either a center-right coalition involving the Independence and Progressive parties that have governed since 2013, or a left-of-center coalition led by the Pirate Party, known locally as Piratar Party....
Always be yourself! Unless you can be a goat, then always be a goat.
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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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Iceland election: Pirate Party triples seats

... It is in joint second place with the Left-Greens - with 10 seats each. But their centre-left coalition fell short of a majority to form a government....
Always be yourself! Unless you can be a goat, then always be a goat.
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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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Scott Walker tweets "If you like the past 8 years, vote @HillaryClinton."

Republicans not voting for Donald Trump:

- Less than a majority of evangelicals
- Vermont Lt. Gov. and candidate for Gov., Phil Scott
- Charles and David Koch
- Harvard University’s Republican Club
- Princeton College Republicans
- George Washington University (my birth place, represent!) College Republicans
- over three thousand signatories to a Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania (Trump’s alma mater) student letter
- Colin Powell
- Dallas Morning News. Historically, the Morning News has tilted conservative, mirroring Texas' drift to the Republican Party. It has not endorsed a Democrat for president since Franklin D. Roosevelt during World War II.
- Jacob Monty, an attorney based in Houston, resigned from the Republican candidate’s National Hispanic Advisory Council
- Alfonso Aguilar, the president of the Latino Partnership for Conservative Principles
- Maybe half of Trump’s Hispanic advisory board
- Massey Villarreal, a businessman in Houston
- Some of Public Faith
- Regina Thomson, Colorado Republican activist
- Free the Delegates
- NOVA Digital Films, a Virginia-based firm that lists a slew of conservative candidates and organizations as clients, including the Republican Party of Virginia, Americans for Prosperity, the anti-abortion Susan B. Anthony List and former gubernatorial candidate Ken Cuccinelli
- Glenn Beck
- Barbara Bush, former first lady
- Jeb Bush, former Florida governor, 2016 presidential candidate
- William Cohen, former secretary of defense
- Jeff Flake, Arizona senator
- Lindsey Graham, South Carolina senator, 2016 presidential candidate
- Larry Hogan, Maryland governor
- John Kasich, Ohio governor, 2016 presidential candidate
- Mark Kirk, Illinois senator
- Mitt Romney, former Massachusetts governor, 2012 Republican presidential nominee
- Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Florida congresswoman
- Ben Sasse, Nebraska senator
- Mike Coffman, Republican congresswoman
- Charlie Dent, Pennsylvania congresswoman
- Vin Weber, former congresswoman, current GOP lobbyist
- Wadi Gaitan, prominent Latino official and chief spokesman for the Republican party in Florida
- Maine Senator Susan Collins (adjacent NH is a swing state)
- Kori Schake, served on President George W. Bush’s National Security Council and was an adviser to Arizona Sen. John McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign
- Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus, almost
- Joe Scarborough
- Evan McMullin, former CIA agent and Republican Congressional staff member, running as an independent
- Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, the most senior member of Florida’s congressional delegation
- Rep. Carlos Curbelo
- Ana Navarro, a GOP strategist and CNN contributor
- Philip Klein, the managing editor of the Washington Examiner
- Cheri Jacobus, GOP consultant and pundit
- Steve Deace, conservative fireband radio host
- Meghan McCain, daughter of 2008 Republican nominee John McCain
- Lachlan Markay, writer for the conservative website Washington Free Beacon
- Ryan Hart, worked on Capitol Hill for several Republican congressmen
- Erick Erickson, high-profile conservative writer and frequent cable news guest
- A dozen big-name business leaders, including lifelong Republicans and independents, including:
--- Jimmy Wales, co-founder of Wikipedia, "center-right", libertarian, fan of Ayn Rand
--- Jack McGregor, former Pennsylvania state senator and founder of the National Hockey League team the Pittsburgh Penguins
- 30 former congresspersons including:
--- former Rep. Steve Bartlett (R-TX)
--- former Rep. Bob Bauman (R-MD)
--- former Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (R-NY)
--- former Rep. Jack Buechner (R-MO)
--- former Rep. Tom Campbell (R-CA)
--- former Rep. Bill Clinger (R-PA)
--- former Rep. Geoff Davis (R-KY)
--- former Rep. Mickey Edwards (R-OK)
--- former Rep. Harris Fawell (R-IL)
--- former Rep. Ed Foreman (R-TX, NM)
--- former Rep. Amo Houghton, Jr. (R-NY)
--- former Rep. Bob Inglis (R-SC)
--- former Rep. Jim Kolbe (R-AZ)
--- former Rep. Steve Kuykendall (R-CA)
--- former Rep. Jim Leach (R-IA)
--- former Rep. Pete McCloskey (R-CA)
--- former Rep. Mike Parker (R-MS)
--- former Rep. Tom Petri (R-WI)
--- former Rep. John Porter (R-IL)
--- former Rep. Claudine Schneider (R-RI)
--- former Rep. Peter Smith (R-VT)
--- former Rep. Edward Weber (R-OH)
--- former Rep. G. William Whitehurst (R-VA)
--- former Rep. Dick Zimmer (R-NJ)
- 50 Republican national security experts including:
--- Michael Hayden, former CIA director (Republican)
--- John Negroponte, first director of national intelligence and later deputy secretary of state
--- Robert B Zoellick, former deputy secretary of state
--- Tom Ridge, former secretary of homeland security
- More than 120 prominent Republicans including three former Cabinet secretaries and six current or former members of Congress:
--- Virginia Rep. Scott Rigell
--- Wisconsin Rep. Reid Ribble
--- Former Sen. Gordon Humphrey of New Hampshire
--- Former Rep. Chris Shays of Connecticut
--- Former Rep. Tom Coleman of Missouri
--- Former Rep. Vin Weber of Minnesota
--- Andrew Weinstein, director of media relations for the Dole/Kemp presidential campaign and deputy press secretary to then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich
--- More than 20 former RNC staffers including:
------ Mindy Finn (former RNC chief digital strategist)
------ Christine Iverson Gunderson (former RNC press secretary)
------ Virginia Hume Onufer (former RNC deputy press secretary)
------ Beth Miller (former RNC field communications division director)
------ Heather Layman (former deputy press secretary)
------ B. Jay Cooper (former RNC communications director under four chairmen)
------ Patrick Ruffini (former RNC ecampaign director)

Republicans voting for Hillary Clinton:

- Scott Walker
- 17 percent of white evangelical Protestants
- Tony Pomerleau, a prominent Republican businessman and developer in Burlington, Vermont
- David Durenberger, Minnesota senator
- Constance A. Morella, Maryland congresswoman
- John J.H. Schwarz, Michigan congressman
- David Irvine, retired brigadier general and former Davis County, Utah, Republican Party chair
- John Warner, five-time Virginia senator, former Secretary of the Navy and Chairman of the Senate Committee on Armed Services
- The Arizona Republic newspaper, the first time it has supported a Democrat since its founding in 1890.
- The Houston Chronicle, conservative-leaning newspaper
- The Cincinnati Enquirer, conservative-leaning newspaper, a nearly century-long tradition of backing Republicans
- San Diego Union-Tribune, which hadn’t endorsed a Democratic nominee in its 148-year history
- Michael Chertoff, former secretary of homeland security, led the Whitewater investigation against Clinton
- Jack Pitney, professor of government at California’s Claremont McKenna College, "This is the first election where I’m not voting Republican.”
- Larry Pressler, former governor and senator from South Dakota
- Arne Carlson, former Minnesota governor
- Mike Fernandez, billionaire health-care magnate, major Republican donor from Florida and former Jeb Bush supporter
- George H.W. Bush
- Paul Wolfowitz, former deputy defence secretary, advisor to President George W. Bush
- Ricardo Reyes, former Deputy Assistant USTR for Public and Media Affairs, Media Surrogate for Bush/Cheney Presidential Campaign
- Charles Dunne, former Foreign Policy Adviser, former Director for Iraq, National Security Council
- Robert Manning, former Member of the Secretary of State's Office of Policy Planning
- Jennifer Sarver, former Bush Administration Official, former GOP Senate Staffer, former RNC Professional Volunteer
- Jim Magill, Chief Master Sergeant (ret.), US Air Force
- Mario Mangiameli, Captain US Marine Corps (Ret.) and former Counterterrorism & Law Enforcement Policy Advisor, US Department of Homeland Security
- Charles Badger, former Director of Coalitions for Jeb Bush 2016, former Director of Legislative Affairs (NJ-Department of Community Affairs, Christie Administration), former Hill staff
- David Meyers, former White House Assistant Staff Secretary and former Communications Advisor for the Senate Republican Leadership
- David Nierenberg, former Mitt Romney national finance chair
- Charles Fried, former Solicitor General
- Richard Painter, former Chief White House Ethics Lawyer
- Donna Barbisch, Major General (ret.) and former Director of Chemical and Biological Defense Program Integration
- Ken Adelman, former US Ambassador to the United Nations and former Arms Control Director
- Kurt Bardella, former advisor to Darrell Issa (R-CA) and former spokesman for Breitbart News
- Elizabeth Tamposi, former Assistant Secretary of State and former New Hampshire State Legislator
- Niki Christoff, former member of the policy staff of John McCain 2008
- James Clad, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Asia
- Patrick Cronin, former Assistant Administrator for Policy and Program Coordination, USAID
- James Filippatos, former Assistant Administrator for International Affairs, Federal Aviation Administration
- Jana Chapman Gates, former speechwriter, US Department of the Treasury
- Jean Geran, former member of the Secretary of State’s Office of Policy Planning
- Justin Kintz, former Special Assistant External Affairs, US Department of the Interior
- Frank Lavin, former White House Political Director, former US Ambassador to Singapore, former Under Secretary of Commerce for International Trade
- Phil Levy, former member of the Secretary of State’s Office of Policy Planning
- Peter Mansoor, Colonel, US Army (Ret.)
- Todd Moss, former Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of African Affairs, US Department of State
- Andrew Sagor, former Special Assistant to the US Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues
- John Stubbs, former Senior Advisor USTR
- Colin Tooze, former Member of the Office of Rep. Chris Cox (R-CA)
- Dan Twining, former Member of the Secretary of State’s Office of Policy Planning
- John Veroneau, former Deputy USTR, former Assistant Secretary of Defense
- Davis White, former Member of the White House Office of Public Liaison
- James Glassman, served as the under secretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs in the George W. Bush administration, voted for every Republican nominee for president since 1980
- Richard Armitage, former deputy secretary of state
- Hank Paulson, former treasury secretary
- Brent Scowcroft, former national security adviser
- Richard Hanna, New York congressman
- Meg Whitman, Republican finance official
- Adam Kinzinger, Illinois congressman
- Sally Bradshaw, GOP strategist
- Maria Comella, Chris Christie staffer
- Lezlee Westine, former aide to President George W Bush
- Carlos Gutierrez, the U.S. secretary of commerce under President George W. Bush, one of the highest-ranking Latino office holders ever, former chief executive officer of the Kellogg Company
- conservative billionaire businessman and Gov. Jeb Bush backer Mike Fernandez
- Cindy Guerra, the former chair of Broward County, Florida’s Republican Executive Committee
- Ben Howe, contributing editor at conservative website Red State
- Mike Treiser, former staffer on Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign
- Mark Salter, former strategist for John McCain
- Joseph Shonkwiler, former Republican Senate staffer
- Some of the more than 120 prominent Republicans cited above
- Some of the 50 Republican national security experts cited above
- Some of Public Faith cited above
- Some of the con Hispanics cited above
- Some of the College Republicans cited above
- Some of the seventy-five former ambassadors voting for Hillary, including 57 appointed by Republican presidents, are Republicans
- Some of the 110 retired military officials voting for Hillary are Republicans
- Some of the 30 former congresspersons cited above
- Some of the dozen big-name business leaders cited above are Republicans

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Re: Non-Trump Republicans

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...Conan the Republican...
Schwarzenegger, the former Republican governor of California, refused to endorse Trump’s candidacy last year. The actor declared he would not vote Republican in the presidential election for the first time since becoming a citizen and urged other members of the party to do the same.

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