Vrede too wrote:It's always amazing how some fools think that an anecdote - their own church, say - has any relevance to what is widely known and easily looked up - the longstanding campaign by rightwing Christians to allow their churches and pastors using church resources to endorse candidates while remaining tax exempt.
"It's always amazing" how left-wing wingnuts clamor and squall about this issue when they themselves never darken the doors of a church, let alone have they heard with their own ears ANY politicking from ANY pulpit ANY where. All these wing-nuts really know is what they read in petitions, panty-waist websites, or from some liberal mouthpiece."It's always amazing how some fools think that an anecdote - their own church, say - has any relevance to what is widely known and easily looked up - the longstanding campaign by rightwing Christians to allow their churches and pastors using church resources to endorse candidates while remaining tax exempt."
True, they use the same police, fire, roads, unemployment, building inspection, healthcare, schools, water, sewer, etc. that taxpayers do. The U.S. system exempts churches from federal and many state income taxes, I don't know about property, sales, gas and other taxes and fees.billy.pilgrim wrote:They also use the infrastructure we taxpayers pay for....
You're obviously forgetting who "they" are. "They", the church members don't own the church, therefore "they" pay their own taxes and "they" pay for expenses the church incurs that are not tax exempt. Churches don't get free or reduced rates on electricity, water, and heating fuels.Vrede too wrote:"True, they use the same police, fire, roads, unemployment, building inspection, healthcare, schools, water, sewer, etc. that taxpayers do. The U.S. system exempts churches from federal and many state income taxes, I'm don't know about property, sales, gas and other taxes and fees."billy.pilgrim wrote:"They also use the infrastructure we taxpayers pay for...."
O Really wrote:"Obviously most churches don't overtly campaign for political candidates. If they did, there would be more enforcement action. But you don't have to go far to find significant examples where attempts have been made to change or circumvent the law. The "uproar" occurs when some idiot in Congress tries to introduce legislation that would allow a church to continue its tax exemption while becoming a political group."
Excellent (and sensible reply.) I'm curious as to know how, or why, this issue ever came up anyway. I can't think of any benefits that would be derived from a pastor openly supporting a candidate anyway. Most people I know, like me would get up and leave.
Vrede and I pay taxes and then the fed taxes all the income we make at our do gooder atheists club house.Mr.B wrote:You're obviously forgetting who "they" are. "They", the church members don't own the church, therefore "they" pay their own taxes and "they" pay for expenses the church incurs that are not tax exempt. Churches don't get free or reduced rates on electricity, water, and heating fuels.Vrede too wrote:"True, they use the same police, fire, roads, unemployment, building inspection, healthcare, schools, water, sewer, etc. that taxpayers do. The U.S. system exempts churches from federal and many state income taxes, I'm don't know about property, sales, gas and other taxes and fees."billy.pilgrim wrote:"They also use the infrastructure we taxpayers pay for...."
Like I said, y'all's beef is that you're not religious, and it irks you terribly that religious organizations get a break; so your big squawk is that churches POSSIBLY are endorsing political candidates of your party's opposition.
Vrede needn't worry that any of his money ever sees inside a church; I don't know why he's screeching© so loudly.
O Really wrote:"Obviously most churches don't overtly campaign for political candidates. If they did, there would be more enforcement action. But you don't have to go far to find significant examples where attempts have been made to change or circumvent the law. The "uproar" occurs when some idiot in Congress tries to introduce legislation that would allow a church to continue its tax exemption while becoming a political group."
Excellent (and sensible reply.) I'm curious as to know how, or why, this issue ever came up anyway. I can't think of any benefits that would be derived from a pastor openly supporting a candidate anyway. Most people I know, like me would get up and leave.
Mr.B wrote:... I'm curious as to know how, or why, this issue ever came up anyway.
:?: :?: :?: O Really just told you - ongoing and current (Trump or "some idiot in Congress") efforts to repeal the Johnson Amendment.
Trump: I will 'destroy' Johnson amendment (February 2, 2017)
Pay attention, you were even heavily involved in the discussion when Trump said this, and it's described in the page 200 petition that you agree with but didn't sign. The only reason we're still chatting about it is because you replied.
Plus, some Christians raise holy hell (I haven't seen other religions screech about it) when their pastors or churches get busted breaking tax law, as has been discussed here often and is easily looked up.
I can't think of any benefits that would be derived from a pastor openly supporting a candidate anyway....
Getting their favored candidates elected with the help of tax-shirking donors, duh.
If I set up a secular nonprofit that is open to the public for the purposes of reading, hearing nonpolitical speeches, repeating ancient improbable myths, singing, listening to music, providing child care, sometimes helping the less fortunate, drinking wine, eating stale crackers and bruising knees, I would probably get tax exempt status, whether or not I was efficient and responsible in doing so. So, I'm not gonna begrudge churches that do the same thing.Vrede too wrote:... Pay attention, whiner.
I understand the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause considerations, know that their tax status will never be changed and am okay with churches being treated like other tax exempt charities....
I'll attend as long as singing is optional, and everyone plays Metallica.Vrede too wrote:"spokesliar"
If I set up a secular nonprofit that is open to the public for the purposes of reading, hearing nonpolitical speeches, repeating ancient improbable myths, singing, listening to music, providing child care, sometimes helping the less fortunate, drinking wine, eating stale crackers and bruising knees, I would probably get tax exempt status, whether or not I was efficient and responsible in doing so. So, I'm not gonna begrudge churches that do the same thing.Vrede too wrote:... Pay attention, whiner.
I understand the 1st Amendment Establishment Clause considerations, know that their tax status will never be changed and am okay with churches being treated like other tax exempt charities....
billy.pilgrim wrote:"Vrede and I pay taxes and then the fed taxes all the income we make at our do gooder atheists club house."
As well as do church members. Just because we go to church, that doesn't make US exempt from taxes.
"Churches are big business, nothing more, nothing less"
That's seems to be the battle cry of those who don't go to church, and have formed opinions because of the rise of mega-churches with opulent buildings and high-salaried leaders. In that respect, I would have to partially agree with you, but not all churches are "big business".
Take a drive out of the big cities into the countryside, away from the "church on every corner" atmosphere and take a look at the small, old church houses where generations of families have watched their families grow and worship. Go inside and take a look at the Offertory and Attendance board that shows 55 people attended worship, and the day's offerings was a grand total of $355.00. Give me a church like that; where Jesus is still Lord and the outside world is forgotten for a short while!
This reminds me of talking to someone about attending church, and their excuse is practically always "Well, I'd go to church, but there's more hypocrites in the church than there are on the outside" .. baloney! People who don't attend a church, won't attend a church, or have formed opinions of a church, are the first to condemn and belittle; when in fact, they know absolutely nothing about church operations other than what they read on the Internet or see on the news; and what you see on either is never the good news; no one is interested in reading or hearing what a church has done for the community or an individual family; but let a church official or well-known member go the wrong path and all eyes light up.....
That's pretty much what I've been standing by with the whole time!!O Really wrote:"I don't know why this is so difficult to understand. A minister, church employer, or member can express their political views 7 days a week outside of church; can work for candidates (paid or volunteer); can campaign and give money. But...if a minister gets up in his role as church leader, speaking to his/her congregation from his/her pulpit of authority, and advocates for a candidate, that's the same activity as speaking at a campaign rally. And in that case, s/he would be using the authority and resources of a tax-exempt church to conduct that activity."
"My "They" was a reference to churches and employees, not the parishioners, and I have not said that I'm irked that religious organizations get a tax break other than when they demand one for non-worship activities or while endorsing candidates.
My question is, when did you witness that happening? Where did you read where that was happening? Who told you that was happening?
We know you didn't go to church <smirk> and observe it first hand... of course you're irked. Ever since I first posted in BRN, I've heard that same old whine from you and some of the other church-hating toads that infested these pages. (I think NC Roughneck was most vocal)
"I merely stated the reality of what that tax break means while acknowledging that churches may pay taxes and fees other than income tax."
But you've yet provided any proof that you KNOW churches are politicking from the pulpit.
Vrede too wrote:"A complete lack of specificity in posting is the poster's problem, not anyone else's. Duh."
As in "But you've yet provided any proof that you KNOW churches are politicking from the pulpit."...?
"Plus, some Christians raise holy hell (I haven't seen other religions screech about it) when their pastors or churches get busted breaking tax law, as has been discussed here often and is easily looked up."
Go for it. When did this happen in your church? <smirk>
Vrede too wrote:"Getting their favored candidates elected with the help of tax-shirking donors, duh."Mr.B wrote: "I can't think of any benefits that would be derived from a pastor openly supporting a candidate anyway...."
Examples? Give us some names of candidates that were supported by churches, church donations, or tax-break monies. This oughta be good.
Vrede too wrote:That's so stupid! We all know that churches have done it, that some have been busted for it, that some Christians are shrieking about the restriction, and that Trump and some in the GOP want the restriction lifted.
We all who? What church has been busted? If you're going to shriek about it, provide some verifiable proof.
I was just asking why all of a sudden the subject of lifting restrictions entered into Trump's mind. That's all
"As for why Trump and the GOP are making the call, it's sucking up to perpetually victimized Christians and fatcat, wannabe tax-shirking donors. Also duh."
And your ilk is being left out ... got it.
"That you haven't had the balls to own having utterly misstated my position on the matter is noted. I'm not surprised."
There you go; fantasizing over my balls again, I'm not surprised.
Who'd you give your notes to, like I really give a wrumpled wrat's wrump what you "noted".
Bored now, done opening posts. This is how all discussions with Mr.B go. It doesn't matter that he's a con, it's the sheer ignorance, laziness, stupidity, dishonesty, memory lapses, immaturity, cowardice and lack of personal responsibility regardless of issue that make it not worth the effort. That's all.Mr.B wrote:We all who? What church has been busted? If you're going to shriek about it, provide some verifiable proof.
Dang, you're lazy!
IRS Targets Political Churches
1,500 Pastors Defy IRS Ban on Preaching Politics
Pastors endorsing candidates, in defiance of IRS rules
Rogue pastors defy IRS
I was just asking why all of a sudden the subject of lifting restrictions entered into Trump's mind. That's all
"As for why Trump and the GOP are making the call, it's sucking up to perpetually victimized Christians and fatcat, wannabe tax-shirking donors. Also duh." And it's not sudden, dummy, see the above links, and we've been discussing this tax dodging Christian screeching for years here.
And your ilk is being left out ... got it.
That's so stupid! As I already linked, http://www.blueridgedebate.com/viewtopi ... dom#p70704:Mr.B was the next poster.Vrede too wrote:... Finally, it's not just right-wing Christian politicos that could benefit from removing the prohibition. Lefties could also set up fake church political front groups so that Soros and others could skate, as could fake mosques using tax free Mideast oil money to skew our democracy. The only difference is that lefties understand all of this while righties are idiots.
Still, what a coward!Vrede too wrote:That you haven't had the balls to own having utterly misstated my position on the matter is noted. I'm not surprised.
.... and here comes 'those people weren't really Christians and don't count".Vrede too wrote:Bored now, done opening posts. This is how all discussions with Mr.B go. It doesn't matter that he's a con, it's the sheer ignorance, laziness, stupidity, dishonesty, memory lapses, immaturity, cowardice and lack of personal responsibility regardless of issue that make it not worth the effort. That's all.Mr.B wrote:We all who? What church has been busted? If you're going to shriek about it, provide some verifiable proof.
Dang, you're lazy!
IRS Targets Political Churches
1,500 Pastors Defy IRS Ban on Preaching Politics
Pastors endorsing candidates, in defiance of IRS rules
Rogue pastors defy IRS
I was just asking why all of a sudden the subject of lifting restrictions entered into Trump's mind. That's all
"As for why Trump and the GOP are making the call, it's sucking up to perpetually victimized Christians and fatcat, wannabe tax-shirking donors. Also duh." And it's not sudden, dummy, see the above links, and we've been discussing this tax dodging Christian screeching for years here.
And your ilk is being left out ... got it.
That's so stupid! As I already linked, http://www.blueridgedebate.com/viewtopi ... dom#p70704:Mr.B was the next poster.Vrede too wrote:... Finally, it's not just right-wing Christian politicos that could benefit from removing the prohibition. Lefties could also set up fake church political front groups so that Soros and others could skate, as could fake mosques using tax free Mideast oil money to skew our democracy. The only difference is that lefties understand all of this while righties are idiots.
Still, what a coward!Vrede too wrote:That you haven't had the balls to own having utterly misstated my position on the matter is noted. I'm not surprised.