Civil liberties thread

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O Really
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Turns out further that the only data on the chip is its identifying number. So even if Mr. or Ms. Nefarious hacked the chips, s/he's still have to hack the schools database to get any correlation to students' names. I'm thinking anybody that can do that, can probably get that data easier some other way.

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O Really
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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According to the ACLU of Washington state, in a guide to students in public schools, much information about students is protected by one law or another, such as FERPA. However, "...certain identifying and contact information, often called “directory information,” has less protection and can be released without prior
written consent unless your parent requests in advance that it not be given out. Your student handbook or school district’s policy should tell you what information your school releases as directory information. Your school should also give you information about how you or your parent can opt out of having your directory information released without prior consent.

Directory information may include your:
name
address
telephone number
e-mail address
photo
birth date
degrees
participation
in activities
and sports
weight and
height of
members of
athletic teams
honors and awards received
dates of attendance
grade level
most recent educational institution attended.

So explain to me again what harm comes from the use of an RFID chip that exceeds the potential from other sources.

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O Really
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Here's a good easy-reading legal summary of the decision... http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/rfid-c ... t-i-55406/

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O Really
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Here's a good non-political summary of current uses and potential issues with RFID chips... http://www.nclnet.org/technology/74-rad ... ation-rfid

Chips in ID cards are still fine with me.

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede wrote: As I've said, I'm more concerned about the potential for internal, official abuse.
.
Realistic examples, please?

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O Really
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede wrote:
O Really wrote:
Vrede wrote:As I've said, I'm more concerned about the potential for internal, official abuse...
Realistic examples, please?
Vrede wrote:Boatrocker gave one example - pedophiles. Other possibilities include a staffer/parent tracking her/his kid throughout the day...
Also, a database is created of which students are hanging out with other students. Would you accept the government knowing everything about who you meet with?
I think somebody must have been piping Alex Jones into your headset while you sleep.

BTW, the court has to address the issues brought before it. The student opted for the "beast" angle, and lost. However, I don't think she would have fared any better on a straight privacy angle, either, particularly since the school had agreed to let her use a non-chipped ID.

I think we need to get past imagination stretches as to what could possibly be done, and look at other schools where ID's have been chipped for several years and see what actually is done, as in 13 Houston-area schools since 2007.

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O Really
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede wrote:
O Really wrote:I think somebody must have been piping Alex Jones into your headset while you sleep.

Fuck off, and you ducked the examples and the question. Add to it - Would you have accepted the government knowing everything about who you met with when you were a young activist?

What's to stop a staffer with a grudge from using the info. against a student, or the cops from using it to build a case? What about a racist that objects to "mixing"?



I didn't duck, I thought they didn't meet the "realistic" test insofar as sufficient reason not to use otherwise neutral technology. I don't think the danger of those things is any greater with chips than with video or other lower-tech tracking. I didn't answer the question about accepting the government knowing everything... because that isn't being proposed now. However, there were times back in South Texas when we certainly were under surveillance much more direct than attempting to track a chip that I could have simply left at home when I went out - for example.

It's not like they're implanting chips, ferpetesake. It's an ID card on a lanyard.

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede wrote:I doubt you have any knowledge of what actually has been done other than the schools' self-serving claims. Plus, we and even the students may never learn about abuses, even if they have suffered the consequences.[/color]
I do not. I know nothing. But I'll bet the good people in Houston know how to find a lawyer if they suspect or believe there might be abuses. And I'll bet that lawyer would get similar publicity to this event. But apparently in five years nothing is reported. Just sayin....

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede wrote:The examples are unrealistic only if one trusts all school staff and all cops (with subpoenas or just cooperation), everywhere.

I'm not comfortable with "video or other lower-tech tracking", either. But, this is an effortlessly compiled and permanent database without any need to watch video and input anything. Just punch a button and you have a map of any student's movements and every other student they came near - that's the "everything" I was referring to.

These students can't leave the chip at home. They are required to carry it under penalty of expulsion, during the school day implantation would be no different.
Schools and cop shops have bad apples. But in my personal experience that involves negotiating their contracts (mostly for the employer), the vast majority are good people that aren't likely to abuse their authority or the kids under their supervision. BTW, I didn't mean to imply the students could leave the ID at home and go to school. I meant that other than when on school premises, they don't have to wear it.

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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O Really wrote: It's an ID card on a lanyard.
ahhhhh... a couple of technical points.. .. I've had the opportunity to design RFID technology into the systems that my company builds.. .. Assuming readers are placed 150 feet apart.. these "chips" ("tags" in this case) cannot be located by triangulation with accuracy greater than +/- 20 feet. . WiFi based systems "might" get that to under +/- 10 feet...

Zoning is the preferred method for tracking an item via RFID.. Even then the tag must pass within a few feet of a reader to reliably transfer data. ..

Don't want to be tracked going to the bathroom... wrap the tag in a few layers of aluminum foil... Problem solved...
Want something more permanent.. heat it with a lighter, stick a pin through it... I've seen some tags where simply deforming the case would render it dead...

That said.. the cost to already cash strapped schools for locating a reader at the entrance to every classroom and bathroom (Zoning) would be exorbitant... placing a reader at every entrance and exit is reasonable.. "Is this person in or out of the building??" sort of thing...

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O Really
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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May be, but I think uses of such tech should be kept in perspective. I see it like this: I know - know without doubt - that there are nefarians out there who try very hard to steal my identity, my credit card numbers, etc. I know, without doubt, that every time I click "submit order" to Nordstrom's that I run a risk. I know that even though it's passcoded, that if I lose my smart phone or my tablet - or in some cases even if I don't lose it - that people are out there able and willing to steal my stuff. I know, without doubt, that some home invaders have posed as UPS or other delivery people. But I still shop and bank online, and swipe my debit card all over everywhere, and give it to the server to pay my bill, and although I don't just open the door without looking, I expect the guy who looks like an UPS driver is probably an UPS driver. The risk is real, but small in comparison to the reward. And I can take precautions to reduce the risk even less.

I don't buy into the camel nose in the tent theory on the student ID chips, and I don't see any real way their privacy is negatively affected in the way the chips are being used. Now, if you find an instance where a school wants to implant and makes the student subject to tracking 24/7, come on back and I'll help you scream from the same soapbox.

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede wrote:
They say that they can locate all kids now, no need for being within a few feet of a reader. I don't know.

.[/color]
Actually "they" (the school itself) does not say that. They say they can locate them within parts of the building complex - not exact location. It's others who say they can track exactly. Crock's contribution probably helps to confirm they do use a zone type thing.

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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O Really wrote:
Vrede wrote:
They say that they can locate all kids now, no need for being within a few feet of a reader. I don't know.

.[/color]
Actually "they" (the school itself) does not say that. They say they can locate them within parts of the building complex - not exact location. It's others who say they can track exactly. Crock's contribution probably helps to confirm they do use a zone type thing.

From the article...
"The software works only within the walls of the school building, cannot track the movements of students, and does not allow students to be monitored by third parties,"

FWIW... . Without knowing more about the hardware.. (the pic in the article shows a Bar Code Scanner) .. It appears to be Zoning...

Entrance/Exit seems sufficient..
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede wrote:It was the "few feet of a reader" thing I was questioning.
For passive (cheap) RFID it is limited to a few feet for reliable data transfers.. Active RFID (tags with batteries) can indeed be read much further but at much greater cost. ..
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O Really
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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Here's an article about school ID cards that are electronic, but not RFID. Tracks lots more information, but appears to me to be majorly useful.
http://www.edweek.org/dd/articles/2010/ ... d.h03.html

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede, wonderful article you posted. I had to share it with some of my friends. I think we maybe looking at a future president in that young lady. I think she would make a excellent one.

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Here's a good commentary on incarceration...
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/03 ... picks=true

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Pennsylvania is, in many ways, even more of a split personality than NC. It has been described as an area that has Philadelphia on one end, Pittsburgh on the other end, and Alabama in the middle. It's not really surprising that they would come up with this mash-up of good intentions and Constitutional violations.

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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This would be like prosecuting The Beatles for the White Album because Manson interpreted it differently...... :wtf:

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Re: Civil liberties thread

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Vrede wrote:
neoplacebo wrote:
This would be like prosecuting The Beatles for the White Album because Manson interpreted it differently...... :wtf:
Or Lynyrd Skynyrd...... :wtf:
... Other tracks include ... “Gimme Back My Bullets” (a title previously used by white Southern-rockers Lynyrd Skynyrd in the mid-’70s)....
I noticed the reference to that song but couldn't think of anyone who was so influenced by it that they acted on it. Also thought of the Stones "Gimme Shelter" which notes that "baby, it's just a shot away" which could go either with drugs or guns. The whole concept of this new law they've got out there is tragically flawed; I'm surprised it was adopted and will be surprised if anyone is convicted under it.

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