The LEO thread

[Leo Lyons]

The pinto is a much better example of corporate murder, but valuejet ain't bad

You forgot the Corvair.

The 1959 Corvair had insufficient rear suspension creating a roll-over risk. They fixed it the next model year and by the time Nader's hatchet job was published it was as safe and reliable as any other car of that era.

You're right. I was thinking of "Unsafe At Any Speed"

[Leo Lyons]

The synagogue murders was premeditated; 11 people died.

Should the shooter be executed (to exact revenge,) or be given life in prison with full life-care benefits?

[O Really]

The synagogue murders was premeditated; 11 people died.

Should the shooter be executed (to exact revenge,) or be given life in prison with full life-care benefits?

Bit of a biased question, Leo. It implies that life in prison is somewhat equivalent to life at a Sandals resort. So I'm going to arbitrarily stop your question at "...life in prison." He'll be convicted no doubt. If at that time he's sentenced to life without parole, he'll rarely be heard from again. If he's on "death row" he'll get appeal after appeal, lots of attention from the anti-death penalty people, stand as a martyr to others of his ilk, and of lesser importance, cost the state more.

But if somebody should enlist the services of the guys that got to Whitey Bulger, I wouldn't be sad about it.

[O Really]

You're right. I was thinking of "Unsafe At Any Speed"

To be sure, the first Corvairs had some design issues, and Nader's book didn't report them untruthfully. It's just that not only did the company fix the problem, but by the time the book came out, they weren't even making that style of Corvair anymore. So Corvair - one chapter out of several - became synonymous with dangerous crap. Whether Nader bothered to look into the later models before publishing or not I don't know - or maybe he was happy to trash them on general principles. I don't know that either. We do know that from the 2000 Presidential election that regardless of the good he may have done overall, that he was willing to risk throwing the election to Bush to satisfy his own ego.

[Vrede too]

Life without parole is revenge without all of that years of extra notoriety for his bigoted cause. Maybe that's why Leo Lyons objects to it.

[billy.pilgrim]

The pinto is a much better example of corporate murder, but valuejet ain't bad
You forgot the Corvair.

Wiki "On May 11, 1996, the ValuJet Airlines McDonnell Douglas DC-9 operating the route crashed into the Everglades about 10 minutes after taking off from Miami as a result of a fire in the cargo compartment caused by improperly stored cargo. All 110 people on board died"
!996! I had to research this one. No. The actions of SabreTech employees was not premeditated murder; rather it was an act of stupidity based on their lack of training. Investigation and Culpability

How is it different than driving drunk?

They broke the law knowing people could die.


What about the pinto? You ran away from this example. The BoD discussed future deaths as a-okay.

Leo, maybe you missed this.

[Leo Lyons]

Life without parole is revenge without all of that years of extra notoriety for his bigoted cause. Maybe that's why Leo Lyons objects to it.

Put a diaper on; you're drooling again.
What Leo Lyons objects to is scumbags like that getting 3 meals a day, clothing, activities, free medical attention...never mind he's locked up the rest of his life with other scumbags; but our society (and your ilk) is so concerned with his health and well being, while this nation has people starving, needing clothing and a roof over their heads....Vrede would prefer our his tax dollars to care for murderers, rapists, and child killers; and to pay hospitals and morgues with overdosed users who died because hard drugs were legalized and more easily obtained.

Next.

[O Really]

I don't know anybody who's all that concerned about the health and well-being of convicted mass murderers, nor who would care if they got killed. But the current versions of "death penalty" don't prevent the convict from having sometimes decades of country club living while waiting for the maybe 50-50 chance he'll eventually ride ol' Sparky or whatever. You argue as if you can get a conviction, then take the convict out to the gallows. Nope. Might be nice, but it doesn't happen. In the meantime, there are more disadvantages to the state and to the society than there are advantages, nevermind the welfare of the convict.

[Leo Lyons]

How is it different than driving drunk?
I couldn't tell you. I've never driven while drunk.

They broke the law knowing people could die.
That would be the opinion of the courts; not yours or mine that would be based on personal opinion and emotions.

What about the pinto? You ran away from this example. The BoD discussed future deaths as a-okay.
No, I didn't run away. I wanted to look up the case before I commented, because I know little to nothing about the case.
I still don't, but I'll have to fall back on my previous comment of "That would be the opinion of the courts; not yours or mine that would be based on personal opinion and emotions."

A charge of murder, or worse, a death sentence, is not something handed out like candy because someone died due to carelessness or indifference; that's why we have courts to decide each case and it's circumstances leading up to a death.

Your baiting on this subject is getting nowhere; you know the outcome of cases such as these; and what the penalties are.

[Leo Lyons]

I don't know anybody who's all that concerned about the health and well-being of convicted mass murderers, nor who would care if they got killed. But the current versions of "death penalty" don't prevent the convict from having sometimes decades of country club living while waiting for the maybe 50-50 chance he'll eventually ride ol' Sparky or whatever. You argue as if you can get a conviction, then take the convict out to the gallows. Nope. Might be nice, but it doesn't happen. In the meantime, there are more disadvantages to the state and to the society than there are advantages, nevermind the welfare of the convict.

Ummm...no. Two appeals, three bullets. Over and done. I'm speaking of lowlifes like the synagogue shooter, the S.C. murderer/rapist, and those who prey on children...and so on.

The argument is the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime; start carrying out the sentences and I believe we'll begin to see a difference.

[O Really]

I don't know anybody who's all that concerned about the health and well-being of convicted mass murderers, nor who would care if they got killed. But the current versions of "death penalty" don't prevent the convict from having sometimes decades of country club living while waiting for the maybe 50-50 chance he'll eventually ride ol' Sparky or whatever. You argue as if you can get a conviction, then take the convict out to the gallows. Nope. Might be nice, but it doesn't happen. In the meantime, there are more disadvantages to the state and to the society than there are advantages, nevermind the welfare of the convict.

Ummm...no. Two appeals, three bullets. Over and done. I'm speaking of lowlifes like the synagogue shooter, the S.C. murderer/rapist, and those who prey on children...and so on.

The argument is the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime; start carrying out the sentences and I believe we'll begin to see a difference.

Well that's how your argument goes "two appeals..." but until you get some laws passed to make that happen, nogonnahappen. Your real life choices don't include your dream system.

Strictly speaking, fear of death penalty is not a deterrent, although it is true that killing someone does keep that particular person from further criminal activity. Criminals (a) don't actually expect to get caught and (b) the violent ones face a much more likely death every day in plying their criminal trade than any death penalty, even if it was "two appeals..."

[Vrede too]

Well heck, as long as we're engaging in hopeless fantasies about how it should go as if they're a contribution to rational adult debate, I'll vote for impaled by a unicorn.

Of course, here in the real world there's no such thing as "lowlifes like ...". Everyone convicted is supposedly guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and we know for a fact that speeding up the process means that the state will murder more innocents.

[Leo Lyons]

Well heck, as long as we're engaging in hopeless fantasies about how it should go as if they're a contribution to rational adult debate,
Correct. It is a hopeless fantasy; a good one too. I tried to present my comments in a level of your understanding, as you have no clue what a rational adult debate is.

I'll vote for impaled by a unicorn.
Good one; hadn't thought of that one. It amazes me how you have room in your head for any train of thought, what with your vast vocabulary of absolutely useless dribble.

Of course, here in the real world there's no such thing as "lowlifes"
That's what you and your kind would love to think doesn't exist in your "real world" of unicorns and rainbows.

like ..."Everyone convicted is supposedly guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and we know for a fact that speeding up the process means that the state will murder more innocents.
I didn't say any such about "Everyone convicted", you silly dingbat. You read what I wrote.

[Leo Lyons]

Well that's how your argument goes "two appeals..." but until you get some laws passed to make that happen, nogonnahappen. Your real life choices don't include your dream system.
It's not my dream system; my dream would be not to even have, or need, a "system", but like you say, nogonnahappen.

Strictly speaking, fear of death penalty is not a deterrent, although it is true that killing someone does keep that particular person from further criminal activity. Criminals (a) don't actually expect to get caught and (b) the violent ones face a much more likely death every day in plying their criminal trade than any death penalty, even if it was "two appeals..."
During my career, I've seen some of the worst sides of humanity; some of the most hateful, inhumane that the mind could ever imagine. Some, I cannot fathom how a human could inflict such horror on another human being; adult or child. I once saw what was left of a little 3 year old girl that was so brutally sexualized, that her tiny little crotch was literally split open to her navel. Her head was smashed completely flat with a large stone. The piece of lowlife garbage that did it was caught trying to kidnap another child; the cops had no clue they had the killer of the previous little girl until he confessed and took the police to her body. The ***********, useless, piece of filth is serving life without parole in the Colorado Supermax because of a "plea bargain". It's unfortunate he's out of reach of other inmates. Plea bargain, my ass!! Two appeals and three bullets.
I know Vrede would rather he be given all the creature comforts afforded the prisoner who went on a window smashing spree because he was high on Oxycontin.

[Whack9]

It's pretty brutal sitting idle 23 hours a day in a cell completely isolated with nothing but your mind to torment you. Spending the rest of your life in the Colorado supermax is definitely no cake walk. I'd say some things are worse than death.

[O Really]

Leo's experience in prison must have been pleasant indeed. Maybe he's thinking they put mass murderers in a minimum security place along with the accountants.

[Leo Lyons]

Leo's experience in prison must have been pleasant indeed.
Vrede's rubbing off on you. Go take a shower and take the rest of the day off.

Maybe he's thinking they put mass murderers in a minimum security place along with the accountants.
Are you having a bad hair day?

[Leo Lyons]

It's pretty brutal sitting idle 23 hours a day in a cell completely isolated with nothing but your mind to torment you. Spending the rest of your life in the Colorado supermax is definitely no cake walk. I'd say some things are worse than death.

I and two other agents went to the Max to interview an inmate that was involved in a drug-related massacre of an entire family. Just driving up to the place gave me the creeps. We could only talk to him through a shield that allowed only conversation; we couldn't see each other. Damn creepy!

[O Really]

Leo's experience in prison must have been pleasant indeed.
Vrede's rubbing off on you. Go take a shower and take the rest of the day off.

Maybe he's thinking they put mass murderers in a minimum security place along with the accountants.
Are you having a bad hair day?

Go back and read your language, Leo. Saying things like "all needs tended to..." though narrowly technically true, carries an implication of being treated well. Where you got that idea, I don't know. But there are arguments that having "all needs tended to" in the manner of the supermax is torture itself. What's your problem with the mass murderer being tortured for the rest of his life?

[Leo Lyons]

Go back and read your language, Leo. Saying things like "all needs tended to..." though narrowly technically true, carries an implication of being treated well. Where you got that idea, I don't know. But there are arguments that having "all needs tended to" in the manner of the supermax is torture itself. What's your problem with the mass murderer being tortured for the rest of his life?

You've misconscrewed my meaning, somewhat. "All needs tended to" means being given what's necessary to keep the prisoner alive to serve out his punishment. That means food, clothing, and medical needs---basic needs the government spends millions on that hundreds of thousands of citizens don't have because low-life scumbags have priority. My mention of Supermax referenced only the piece of sh*t that killed the child. Inmates there do get the 'very basic' of sustenance, but they do get it. If they were "innocent", they wouldn't be there.