Big Brother is Watching You

Generally an unmoderated forum for discussion of pretty much any topic. The focus however, is usually politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
O Really
Admiral
Posts: 21431
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by O Really »

Vrede too wrote:Is violating the 4th Amendment an illegal act?
Good question. Disagreements over whether a given action violates the Constitution are usually best settled in court.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

How do you ever get to court when your concerns about NSA’s domestic eavesdropping are ignored by the agency and the person charged with preventing retaliation is someone that retaliates so grievously against an NSA whistleblower that he gets fired but only years later? It's a classic Catch-22.
NSA Watchdog Removed for Whistleblower Retaliation

... Snowden himself has explicitly contended that he feared retaliation and that he had no other option but to go public if he wished to expose NSA domestic eavesdropping. Among the cases of retaliation that Snowden has pointed to is that of former senior NSA employee Thomas Drake, who after reporting alleged wrongdoing through authorized channels, was arrested at dawn by the FBI, stripped of his security clearance, charged with crimes under the Espionage Act, all of which were later dropped, leaving him to find work in an Apple store. Snowden’s related contention is that in his own case, he did, in fact, report his concerns in emails to NSA superiors at the time, a contention which NBC has said it verified.

Now, given the official finding that Ellard retaliated against an NSA whistleblower, the credibility of Ellard’s argument that Snowden could have come to him is gravely undermined. More generally, there are few if any incentives for intelligence whistleblowers to report problems through designated authorities when the IG of NSA is found to have retaliated against such an individual....
With Trump coming in would you rather not have the public awareness and changes to law and policy, including whistleblower policy, that Snowden caused?
A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
O Really
Admiral
Posts: 21431
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by O Really »

Well, Snowden's disclosures weren't limited to unlawful domestic surveillance. If they had been, I'd probably be more sympathetic. But to answer the question, with Trump coming in, I'd rather him not even have the key to the exec washroom, much less the nuke codes or the keys to the world's (former) best intelligence organization. But I'm no less afraid of Trump just because of the mess Snowden created.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
rstrong
Captain
Posts: 5889
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by rstrong »

From the New York Times:
“Chelsea Manning is somebody who went through the military criminal justice process, was exposed to due process, was found guilty, was sentenced for her crimes, and she acknowledged wrongdoing,” he said. “Mr. Snowden fled into the arms of an adversary, and has sought refuge in a country that most recently made a concerted effort to undermine confidence in our democracy.”
That'd be one of the four countries that offered Snowden permanent asylum: Ecuador, Nicaragua, Bolivia, and Venezuela. The US trapped Snowden in Russia while enroute. They even intercepted and searched the president of Bolivia's plane to search it for Snowden.

Funny though, I hadn't heard that Bolivia was an adversary or undermined American democracy.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

In fact, America has repeatedly undermined democracy in Ecuador, Nicaragua, Bolivia, and Venezuela for decades.
A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

Obama’s ‘favorite general’ wins pardon in leak probe

I don't really care either way about Cartwright, the real crime here is that Stuxnet was an Israeli-US illegal act of war.
A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

MAP: Freedom is declining as populism and nationalism surge

Image

Global freedom has declined for the 11th consecutive year, according to human rights group Freedom House. The annual Freedom in the World report attributed the decline on growing populism and nationalism in democratic societies, along with greater authoritarianism in other nations.

The report found that 45 percent of the world’s countries could be considered Free. In comparison, 30 percent were rated as Partly Free, and 25 percent Not Free.

Perhaps more worryingly, 67 countries suffered declines in political rights and civil liberties last year. In years past, those declines were largely confined to countries with autocratic leaders or dictators.

However, the report claims in 2016, “it was established democracies — countries rated Free in the report’s ranking system — that dominated the list of countries suffering setbacks.”

Image

One of the notable nations singled out for scorn in the report was Russia. The Eurasian nation saw its Freedom Score decline following its 2016 legislative elections which gave President Vladimir Putin’s United Russia party a supermajority in the country’s lower house.

Additionally, the report decries that Russia, “in stunning displays of hubris and hostility, interfered in the political processes of the United States and other democracies, escalated its military support for the Assad dictatorship in Syria, and solidified its illegal occupation of Ukrainian territory.”

While the United States was rated as Free, the report also named it a “country to watch” after a series of destabilizing events.

In particular, the group claims the election of Donald Trump, “a mercurial figure with unconventional views on foreign policy and other matters, raised questions about the country’s future role in the world.” ...
A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
rstrong
Captain
Posts: 5889
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by rstrong »

Vrede too wrote:the real crime here is that Stuxnet was an Israeli-US illegal act of war.
How would it be illegal on Israel's part? It's hard to argue that Iran isn't at war with Israel. Its leaders regularly openly declare that much, even promising to use nuclear weapons against Israel. They send entire ship-loads of weapons to terrorist organizations opposing Israel.

A few months ago: Iranian military official: We have 100,000 missiles in Lebanon ready to hit Israel

A non-violent action like Stuxnet seems pretty tame by comparison.

There's been no shortage of attacks by proxy against Americans either. If the US used a non-American to deliver Stuxnet by proxy, would that make it legal?

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

One illegal act of war does not make a retaliatory or supposedly preemptive illegal act of war legal.
rstrong wrote:... If the US used a non-American to deliver Stuxnet by proxy, would that make it legal?
No.
A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
O Really
Admiral
Posts: 21431
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by O Really »

Russians may give Snowden to Trump as a "gift." Karma's a bitch, eh?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/rus ... &ocid=iehp

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

Not that I have any sympathy for possible consumers of child porn, but I do like the Fifth Amendment. If it can be abrogated for some, it can be abrogated for all.

Man jailed 16 months, and counting, for refusing to decrypt hard drives
He’s not charged with a crime. Judge demands he help prosecutors build their case.
A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
O Really
Admiral
Posts: 21431
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by O Really »

I think he's on pretty sound ground from a 5th Amendment standpoint. Unlocking the drives would appear to clearly be witnessing against himself in a criminal matter.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

Except for the 16 months in jail, and counting, to get that determination. If under threat of jail he'd given up the encryption key (or does now), do you think he would have gotten all the found evidence thrown out based on the coercion being a 5th Amendment violation?
A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
O Really
Admiral
Posts: 21431
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by O Really »

Vrede too wrote:Except for the 16 months in jail, and counting, to get that determination. If under threat of jail he'd given up the encryption key (or does now), do you think he would have gotten all the found evidence thrown out based on the coercion being a 5th Amendment violation?
I'd guess a good chance of it.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
rstrong
Captain
Posts: 5889
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:32 am
Location: Winnipeg, MB

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by rstrong »

At least the phone was returned. Around 15 phones a day are confiscated - and not returned - by Customs and Border Patrol agents. They can do the same for laptops and other electronics.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

No doubt. This case is noteworthy for what can happen to even a routinely vetted native born American arriving from low risk Chile with sensitive info. on his NASA-supplied phone. Worse can happen to anyone else.
A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 51099
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Big Brother is Watching You

Unread post by Vrede too »

A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
-- Charlie Sykes on MSNBC
1312. ETTD.

Post Reply