The Cinema Thread

[Vrede too]

I was never much on Wayne either, and the Spaghettis were all the same, but a younger me did like the Lone Ranger. A favorite movie was Cochise. (Did ya know that he was a big tall white dude who looked like the Rifleman?)

The best Western ever made is Once Upon a Time In the West. Henry Fonda, Jason Robards and Jack Elam are so evil that you'll start liking Charles Bronson. Oh, and there's Claudia Cardinale too.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0064116/

I liked Wayne in True Grit (1969), but not much else.
Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) is a Spaghetti, nttawwt.

Somewhat more recently I really liked:
Dances with Wolves (1990), despite the "White savior" trope
Unforgiven (1992). Ol' Clint's alright when he isn't doing 'empty chair' politics.

[O Really]

I enjoyed TV westerns, particularly Gunsmoke and Have Gun Will Travel, and have seen some western films that I enjoyed at the time but weren't particularly memorable. Except Blazing Saddles.

Yeah, Dancing with Wolves was good, or at least as good as Dancing with the Stars.

[billy.pilgrim]

I was never much on Wayne either, and the Spaghettis were all the same, but a younger me did like the Lone Ranger. A favorite movie was Cochise. (Did ya know that he was a big tall white dude who looked like the Rifleman?)

The best Western ever made is Once Upon a Time In the West. Henry Fonda, Jason Robards and Jack Elam are so evil that you'll start liking Charles Bronson. Oh, and there's Claudia Cardinale too.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0064116/

I liked Wayne in True Grit (1969), but not much else.
Once Upon a Time in the West (1968) is a Spaghetti, nttawwt.

Somewhat more recently I really liked:
Dances with Wolves (1990), despite the "White savior" trope why would you label it White Savior? It's been awhile, but wasn't it more red Savior?


Unforgiven (1992). Ol' Clint's alright when he isn't doing 'empty chair' politics. I did like Rawhide

Yeah, it's a spaghetti but this is good; therefore, it's not really a spaghetti


Yeah, it's a spaghetti but this is good; therefore, it's not really a spaghetti

[Vrede too]

Somewhat more recently I really liked:
Dances with Wolves (1990), despite the "White savior" trope

why would you label it White Savior? It's been awhile, but wasn't it more red Savior?

I did like Rawhide

It's not something I invented.

White savior narrative in film: List of associated films

I liked the theme song, was never an avid viewer of the show, though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGyhSifqzA

Cut 'em out, ride 'em in,
Ride 'em in, let 'em out,
Cut 'em out, ride 'em in
Rawhide!

Frankie Avalon

All 19th Century Indians were really White guys, duh.

Guy Teague

[billy.pilgrim]

Somewhat more recently I really liked:
Dances with Wolves (1990), despite the "White savior" trope

why would you label it White Savior? It's been awhile, but wasn't it more red Savior?

I did like Rawhide

It's not something I invented.

White savior narrative in film: List of associated films

I liked the theme song, was never an avid viewer of the show, though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFGyhSifqzA

Cut 'em out, ride 'em in,
Ride 'em in, let 'em out,
Cut 'em out, ride 'em in
Rawhide!

Frankie Avalon

All 19th Century Indians were really White guys, duh.

Guy Teague

Wasn't Dances more of a trade off? It's been a long time, but didn't they help him stay alive before he helped them?

[Vrede too]

Wasn't Dances more of a trade off? It's been a long time, but didn't they help him stay alive before he helped them?

I don't think the White savior narrative in film excludes some amount of reciprocity, whether it's physical rescue or more often some kind of spiritual rescue.

The white savior is a cinematic trope in which a white central character rescues non-white (often less prominent) characters from unfortunate circumstances. This recurs in an array of genres in American cinema, wherein a white protagonist is portrayed as a messianic figure who often gains some insight or introspection in the course of rescuing non-white characters (or occasionally non-human alien races that substitute as non-white civilizations) from their plight....

It's an excellent movie IMO, but there's no doubt that it's the White character's POV. Its Wiki page includes:

... David Sirota of Salon referred to Dances with Wolves as a "white savior" film, as Dunbar "fully embeds himself in the Sioux tribe and quickly becomes its primary protector". He argued that its use of the "noble savage" character type "preemptively blunts criticism of the underlying White Savior story. The idea is that a film like Dances with Wolves cannot be bigoted or overly white-centric if it at least shows [characters such as] Kicking Bird and Chief Ten Bears as special and exceptional. This, even though the whole story is about a white guy who saves the day."

[Vrede too]

Segue to a different genre,

Happy Death Day (2017)

"Groundhog Day meets Scream".

Best to watch this original first, then:

Happy Death Day 2U (2019)
PG-13, Horror/Mystery & thriller, 1h 40m

71% Tomatometer, 60% Audience Score

A funnier follow-up with a sci-fi bent, Happy Death Day 2U isn't as fiendishly fresh as its predecessor, but fans of the original may still find this a sequel worth celebrating.

"Groundhog Day meets Scream" meets I Love Lucy.

[O Really]

Seems to me the "white saviour" concept is a bit overstretched and in many if not most of the films listed in the Wiki article it's irrelevant. Sure, it's not a good thing to portray people who were IRL peaceful basketweavers as headhunters. But there are indeed real events where a person who happens to be white helps some disadvantaged person or group. Should those stories not be told? Or should the roles be reversed to avoid the stigma of "white saviour"? White guy in "Avatar" didn't go there to "save" the indigenous people from themselves - he helped them fight against other mostly white earthlings. Should he have bailed from his adopted community? Are there not many real stories of bad rough low-performing schools that have been changed by the work of some special teacher? But sure, if Tonto had been the lead and Lone Ranger had been the sidekick, that would have been more socially conscious, despite the fact that Tonto was no less heroic and saved Lone's bacon many times.

[Vrede too]

Seems to me the "white saviour" concept is a bit overstretched and in many if not most of the films listed in the Wiki article it's irrelevant. Sure, it's not a good thing to portray people who were IRL peaceful basketweavers as headhunters.

"a good thing" in portrayal is not really the issue. It's just a fact that this is an overwhelming cinematic device whether the end result is "good" or "bad".

But there are indeed real events where a person who happens to be white helps some disadvantaged person or group. Should those stories not be told? Or should the roles be reversed to avoid the stigma of "white saviour"?

Wiki:

In "The Whiteness of Oscar Night" (2015), Matthew Hughey describes the narrative structure of the subgenre:

A White Savior film is often based on some supposedly true story. Second, it features a nonwhite group or person who experiences conflict and struggle with others that is particularly dangerous or threatening to their life and livelihood. Third, a White person (the savior) enters the milieu and through their sacrifices, as a teacher, mentor, lawyer, military hero, aspiring writer, or wannabe Native American warrior, is able to physically save—or at least morally redeem—the person or community of folks of color, by the film's end....

Your questions/conditions don't make the films any less White Savior films.

White guy in "Avatar" didn't go there to "save" the indigenous people from themselves - he helped them fight against other mostly white earthlings. Should he have bailed from his adopted community?

Where the threat comes from is irrelevant. It's the saving that's the issue. Why not a film exclusively told from the Na'vi perspective and without the White (not even Asian, Black or Latino) champion? Hollywood don't do that.

Are there not many real stories of bad rough low-performing schools that have been changed by the work of some special teacher?

Why is it that To Sir With Love is so memorable decades later? It's because there are so very few films like it, and even it was "safe" for Americans because it was British.

But sure, if Tonto had been the lead and Lone Ranger had been the sidekick, that would have been more socially conscious, despite the fact that Tonto was no less heroic and saved Lone's bacon many times.

Name some films where all Whites are shown as somehow weak, lacking sophistication, whatever and in need of rescuing by Indians or other non-Whites. Good luck.

Aside from being generally well made, Black Panther, Get Out, and Us are such standouts because the concept of mainstream films with Black heroes is so rare, Tyler Perry's fluff notwithstanding.

I'm not sure why y'all are so defensive. The White savior narrative in film is widely recognized be critics, historians and almost all other experts. Saying that it applies to a particular movie is little different from saying that a film is a Western or SciFi. They are all legit and undeniable descriptors.

[O Really]

I'm not sure why y'all are so defensive. The White savior narrative in film is widely recognized be critics, historians and almost all other experts. Saying that it applies to a particular movie is little different from saying that a film is a Western or SciFi. They are all legit and undeniable descriptors.[/color]

I wouldn't consider myself to be so defensive. And I'm not denying that white saviour films are a thing. I could be (gasp) wrong, but my impression is that "white saviour" is generally used not as a common genre name, but as somewhat of a negative. If it's really the same as saying "western", "horror", "romantic comedy" then scratch my comments.

[Vrede too]

I wouldn't consider myself to be so defensive. And I'm not denying that white saviour films are a thing. I could be (gasp) wrong, but my impression is that "white saviour" is generally used not as a common genre name, but as somewhat of a negative. If it's really the same as saying "western", "horror", "romantic comedy" then scratch my comments.

IMO the negative comes with the prevalence more than the device itself. Films without saviors risk being boring, but maybe they shouldn't almost all be White.

[billy.pilgrim]

Seems to me the "white saviour" concept is a bit overstretched and in many if not most of the films listed in the Wiki article it's irrelevant. Sure, it's not a good thing to portray people who were IRL peaceful basketweavers as headhunters. But there are indeed real events where a person who happens to be white helps some disadvantaged person or group. Should those stories not be told? Or should the roles be reversed to avoid the stigma of "white saviour"? White guy in "Avatar" didn't go there to "save" the indigenous people from themselves - he helped them fight against other mostly white earthlings. Should he have bailed from his adopted community? Are there not many real stories of bad rough low-performing schools that have been changed by the work of some special teacher? But sure, if Tonto had been the lead and Lone Ranger had been the sidekick, that would have been more socially conscious, despite the fact that Tonto was no less heroic and saved Lone's bacon many times.

100% agree

I think the WS term was intended to describe the Oh Look How Great We White People Are films that show whites able to leap tall buildings in their benevolent quest to help the less fortunate races.

The edges of these terms all seem to grow with age. It's often with the same laziness that fills our understanding of history with gaps and shortcuts to hide the blemishes we don't like.

The term has nothing to do with people who happen to be white helping less fortunate people of color - as in Dances with Wolves or Avatar where the white guy "knew" the enemy's weaknesses. Without the good white guy, the bad white guys win.

There are countless examples of real White Savior films where it's the superiority of pretty much any white person (probably a man) that allows them to step in and teach self defense or irrigation or medical or some other salvation.

Study example

Grisham's A time to Kill was set in 1984. Is this as a non-WS film because of where it takes place? A black attorney may not have been as effective in small town backwoods Mississippi.
Would the same script in San Francisco, or Denver, or even Mobile or Memphis would be labeled WS?

Bonus question

Is the Cisco Kid an example of the Brown Savior? If not, what category is it?
It's two brown guys constantly beating up bad white guys to save blond white women.

[billy.pilgrim]

I wouldn't consider myself to be so defensive. And I'm not denying that white saviour films are a thing. I could be (gasp) wrong, but my impression is that "white saviour" is generally used not as a common genre name, but as somewhat of a negative. If it's really the same as saying "western", "horror", "romantic comedy" then scratch my comments.

IMO the negative comes with the prevalence more than the device itself. Films without saviors risk being boring, but maybe they shouldn't almost all be White.

What about historical events? Would a film about Carter’s work in Africa be considered a WS film?

[Vrede too]

What about historical events? Would a film about Carter’s work in Africa be considered a WS film?

Again,

Wiki:

In "The Whiteness of Oscar Night" (2015), Matthew Hughey describes the narrative structure of the subgenre:

A White Savior film is often based on some supposedly true story. Second, it features a nonwhite group or person who experiences conflict and struggle with others that is particularly dangerous or threatening to their life and livelihood. Third, a White person (the savior) enters the milieu and through their sacrifices, as a teacher, mentor, lawyer, military hero, aspiring writer, or wannabe Native American warrior, is able to physically save—or at least morally redeem—the person or community of folks of color, by the film's end....

Whether events are "historical" doesn't negate the fact that the filmmakers deliberately chose a White Savior from history.

If it's "a film about Carter’s work in Africa," by definition it's a White Savior film. Otoh, if it's about all of the people working for election integrity in Africa, of whom Carter was one, that's not a White Savior film.

Given that this is at least the second time we've had this discussion I'm not sure what the point is. I make no claims to being an expert and your equally non-expert opinion is not going to alter all of the film academics who have identified and described the fact of the White savior narrative in film and how often we've seen it. I accept their analysis.

I have learned one thing though - never praise a White Savior film, which is what I did with Dance with Wolves. Even praise will start an argument.

[billy.pilgrim]

What about historical events? Would a film about Carter’s work in Africa be considered a WS film?

Again,

Wiki:

In "The Whiteness of Oscar Night" (2015), Matthew Hughey describes the narrative structure of the subgenre:

A White Savior film is often based on some supposedly true story. Second, it features a nonwhite group or person who experiences conflict and struggle with others that is particularly dangerous or threatening to their life and livelihood. Third, a White person (the savior) enters the milieu and through their sacrifices, as a teacher, mentor, lawyer, military hero, aspiring writer, or wannabe Native American warrior, is able to physically save—or at least morally redeem—the person or community of folks of color, by the film's end....

Whether events are "historical" doesn't negate the fact that the filmmakers deliberately chose a White Savior from history.

If it's "a film about Carter’s work in Africa," by definition it's a White Savior film. Otoh, if it's about all of the people working for election integrity in Africa, of whom Carter was one, that's not a White Savior film.

Given that this is at least the second time we've had this discussion I'm not sure what the point is. I make no claims to being an expert and your equally non-expert opinion is not going to alter all of the film academics who have identified and described the fact of the White savior narrative in film and how often we've seen it. I accept their analysis.

I have learned one thing though - never praise a White Savior film, which is what I did with Dance with Wolves. Even praise will start an argument.

My problem is as much with the name as anything else. I've always seen the term White Savior as a negative term describing how benevolent, wonderful, resourceful, intelligent white people go help ignorant brown people.
I'm not sure how this broader definition you use defines anything.

[Vrede too]

My problem is as much with the name as anything else. I've always seen the term White Savior as a negative term describing how benevolent, wonderful, resourceful, intelligent white people go help ignorant brown people.
I'm not sure how this broader definition you use defines anything.

Wiki presents the definition, citing many many experts. I don't presume to have developed the concept myself, but I recognize the trope now.

[O Really]

Man, I've been to a lot of films the "experts" loved and thought they were trash - and vice versa. Unlike something of scientific base, definition of film types and categories is just something they made up and subject to differing opinion. Like the various kinds of rock or jazz. Sure there are differences, but they're all theoretical.

"The edges of these terms all seem to grow with age" I like that. Similar to what's happened to the term "racist."

[Vrede too]

As with so many things these days like affirmative action, CRT and "voting rights" it's a widespread and long term conspiracy against po' oppressed White folk. I apologize for buying into it.

[O Really]

As with so many things these days like affirmative action, CRT and "voting rights" it's a widespread and long term conspiracy against po' oppressed White folk. I apologize for buying into it.

I wonder if this is just an American or English-speaking thing, or if Bollywood has people in angst over having too many Indian heroes fighting off the English occupiers and saving the fair Scottish lassie.

[Vrede too]

I wonder if this is just an American or English-speaking thing, or if Bollywood has people in angst over having too many Indian heroes fighting off the English occupiers and saving the fair Scottish lassie.

You jest, but:

Can We Move On: From the Trope of the Male Savior Who Rescues Women From Patriarchy in ‘Woke’ (Bollywood) Movies
Decoding Male Saviour Complex In Indian Films
Woke filmmakers championing women’s rights forget that women need empathy and not sympathy
6 Bollywood movies that are problematic and affected by Saviour complex

Stereotypes in Bollywood Cinema: Does Article 15 Reinforce the Dalit Narrative?

... Most Bollywood films could be seen suffering from a Brahmin saviour complex- where the fair skinned Savarna hero saves the day....

Sound familiar?

Come to think of it "Bollywood" is a racist term, defining rich Indian cinema by its White (mostly) LA cousin.