Afghanistan

[Vrede too]

‘Afghanistan is unraveling.’ McConnell skewers Biden again on withdrawal.

Support it or not, chickenhawk Moscow Mitch sure never objected when the withdrawal was chickenhawk former PINO's nearly irreversible scheme, and he's never floated an alternative plan. The asshole’s exploiting our soldiers and vets, again.

[neoplacebo]

It sounds like a job for General Flynn and Rudy.

[Vrede too]

Bush hits Biden on Afghanistan withdrawal, says fallout will be 'unbelievably bad'

Kinda like how the fallout from invading Iraq based on hundreds of lies was unbelievably bad for the Afghanistan mission? Will you ever admit that, Shrub?

[O Really]

WTF do these people want? Yeah, I know - gotta trash the opposition no matter what. But besides that. Has anybody ever "won" in Afghanistan? Ever? I think that would be "no." Has any outside force been able to force its will in Afghanistan? That would also be "no" with maybe some short term exceptions. US support/interference was there for 20 effin' years, 8 more than it took the Russians to wise up. And after all that "support/training/free weapons" for 20 years the Afghan army remains a bunch of ragtag wimps who roll over like a Golden pup. How does the Taliban get all the good fighters? And why are there even any of them left alive after 20 years of US Military might, noticeably lacking in shock and awe?

[Vrede too]

WTF do these people want? Yeah, I know - gotta trash the opposition no matter what. But besides that. Has anybody ever "won" in Afghanistan? Ever? I think that would be "no." Has any outside force been able to force its will in Afghanistan? That would also be "no" with maybe some short term exceptions. US support/interference was there for 20 effin' years, 8 more than it took the Russians to wise up. And after all that "support/training/free weapons" for 20 years the Afghan army remains a bunch of ragtag wimps who roll over like a Golden pup. How does the Taliban get all the good fighters? And why are there even any of them left alive after 20 years of US Military might, noticeably lacking in shock and awe?

We should have gotten out long ago, well before Shrub left office.

It does seem that both 45SHOLE and Joe have done a crappy job of planning for the translators and others that collaborated with us over the years. Of course, this has been our military's tradition since at least the 1970s.

[billy.pilgrim]

WTF do these people want? Yeah, I know - gotta trash the opposition no matter what. But besides that. Has anybody ever "won" in Afghanistan? Ever? I think that would be "no." Has any outside force been able to force its will in Afghanistan? That would also be "no" with maybe some short term exceptions. US support/interference was there for 20 effin' years, 8 more than it took the Russians to wise up. And after all that "support/training/free weapons" for 20 years the Afghan army remains a bunch of ragtag wimps who roll over like a Golden pup. How does the Taliban get all the good fighters? And why are there even any of them left alive after 20 years of US Military might, noticeably lacking in shock and awe?

We should have gotten out long ago, well before Shrub left office.

It does seem that both 45SHOLE and Joe have done a crappy job of planning for the translators and others that collaborated with us over the years. Of course, this has been our military's tradition since at least the 1970s.

We shouldn't have started this mess in the 80s. The Soviets were doing just fine maintaining "their" border and using up "their" resources, but oh no, we thought teaching them how to make IEDs and other terrorist tricks in another of reagan secret wars would be super cool fun and of course there wouldn't be any unintended consequences.

Kinda like attacking Iran's enemy - Iraq

[Vrede too]

We shouldn't have started this mess in the 80s. The Soviets were doing just fine maintaining "their" border and using up "their" resources, but oh no, we thought teaching them how to make IEDs and other terrorist tricks in another of reagan secret wars would be super cool fun and of course there wouldn't be any unintended consequences.

Kinda like attacking Iran's enemy - Iraq

Agreed, but I felt that Gore also would have carried out some sort of invasion of Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11. It's in the management of the occupation and of course Iraq policy where I hope and believe he would have differed from Shrub.

[billy.pilgrim]

We shouldn't have started this mess in the 80s. The Soviets were doing just fine maintaining "their" border and using up "their" resources, but oh no, we thought teaching them how to make IEDs and other terrorist tricks in another of reagan secret wars would be super cool fun and of course there wouldn't be any unintended consequences.

Kinda like attacking Iran's enemy - Iraq

Agreed, but I felt that Gore also would have carried out some sort of invasion of Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11. It's in the management of the occupation and of course Iraq policy where I hope and believe he would have differed from Shrub.

There wasn't a reason to. The sanctions would have worked but would have ended rumsfeld's pipeline deal with the Taliban. Gore may have sent in a hundred or so SEAL types, but I doubt much more.
Sanctions and SEALS would have done the deed far earlier.

[neoplacebo]

We shouldn't have started this mess in the 80s. The Soviets were doing just fine maintaining "their" border and using up "their" resources, but oh no, we thought teaching them how to make IEDs and other terrorist tricks in another of reagan secret wars would be super cool fun and of course there wouldn't be any unintended consequences.

Kinda like attacking Iran's enemy - Iraq

Agreed, but I felt that Gore also would have carried out some sort of invasion of Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11. It's in the management of the occupation and of course Iraq policy where I hope and believe he would have differed from Shrub.

There wasn't a reason to. The sanctions would have worked but would have ended rumsfeld's pipeline deal with the Taliban. Gore may have sent in a hundred or so SEAL types, but I doubt much more.
Sanctions and SEALS would have done the deed far earlier.

Yeah, the whole Afghanistan thing should have been an ongoing special forces gig where a team could go in when needed to address particular situations as often as needed. They wouldn't even have to be stationed there. And the Iraq thing should never have been a thing at all. The money that's been spent on all this is more than the current infrastructure proposal but I don't hear much squawking about "who's gonna pay for all this" like they're doing now. Meanwhile the GOP has been insistent on three massive tax cuts over the past 40 years. Those were so massive that the "trickle down" benefits of them are not expected to trickle down until sometime after pigs start flying and birds start walking.

[Vrede too]

There wasn't a reason to. The sanctions would have worked but would have ended rumsfeld's pipeline deal with the Taliban. Gore may have sent in a hundred or so SEAL types, but I doubt much more.
Sanctions and SEALS would have done the deed far earlier.

I hear your logic and can't debate the sense of it. However, I was certain of massive retaliation, regardless of POTUS, the moment I watched the second tower get hit while sitting in a cafe in Amazonian Colombia. It's how the US rolls whether Repugs or Dems are in charge.

[billy.pilgrim]

There wasn't a reason to. The sanctions would have worked but would have ended rumsfeld's pipeline deal with the Taliban. Gore may have sent in a hundred or so SEAL types, but I doubt much more.
Sanctions and SEALS would have done the deed far earlier.

I hear your logic and can't debate the sense of it. However, I was certain of massive retaliation, regardless of POTUS, the moment I watched the second tower get hit while sitting in a cafe in Amazonian Colombia. It's how the US rolls whether Repugs or Dems are in charge.

The public wanted Osama.
Rumsfeld wanted a pipeline.
Cheney only wanted Iraq oil deals.

If you remember, bush pretended to use sanctions to get Osama and the public was okay with going along. It was only after the claim that sanctions wouldn't work that the public wanted to invade. - as I remember

[Vrede too]

The public wanted Osama.
Rumsfeld wanted a pipeline.
Cheney only wanted Iraq oil deals.

If you remember, bush pretended to use sanctions to get Osama and the public was okay with going along. It was only after the claim that sanctions wouldn't work that the public wanted to invade. - as I remember

Congress authorized the war on 9/14.
We began bombing on 10/7.
IMO the public was irrelevant, though its bloodthirsty support was predictable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... 1,_attacks

[billy.pilgrim]

You are right.

Didn't we give them the option to turn over Osama?

[Vrede too]

You are right.

Didn't we give them the option to turn over Osama?

The link discusses that at length, beginning with:

... The State Department, in a memo dated September 14, demanded that the Taliban surrender all known al-Qaeda associates in Afghanistan, provide intelligence on bin Laden and his affiliates, and expel all terrorists from Afghanistan. On September 18, the director of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, Mahmud Ahmed conveyed these demands to Mullah Omar and the senior Taliban leadership, whose response was "not negative on all points". Mahmud reported that the Taliban leadership was in "deep introspection" and waiting for the recommendation of a grand council of religious clerics that was assembling to decide the matter. On September 20, President Bush, in an address to Congress, demanded the Taliban deliver bin Laden and other suspected terrorists and destroy the al-Qaeda bases. "These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. The Taliban must act and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate."

On the same day, a grand council of over 1,000 Muslim clerics from across Afghanistan, which had convened to decide bin Laden's fate, issued a fatwa expressing sadness for the deaths in the 9/11 attacks, recommending that the Islamic Emirate "persuade" bin Laden to leave their country, and calling on the United Nations and the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation to conduct an independent investigation of "recent events to clarify the reality and prevent harassment of innocent people". The fatwa went on to warn that should the United States not agree with its decision and invade Afghanistan, "jihad becomes an order for all Muslims." However, on the same day the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan said: "We will neither surrender Osama bin Laden nor ask him to leave Afghanistan." These maneuvers were dismissed by the US as insufficient.

We'll never know if turning over ObL really would have been sufficient to prevent the invasion.

[Vrede too]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/42-percent-r ... 50844.html

A new poll revealed that 59 percent of registered voters "support the plan to withdraw all troops" from Afghanistan by the end of August, Politico reports via a survey with Morning Consult. Only 25 percent of respondents said they were opposed.

The support more specifically includes 76 percent of Democrats, 59 percent of independents and 42 percent of Republicans....

I also supported the plan to withdraw all troops from Afghanistan by the end of August 2002, but no one asked me that.

[GoCubsGo]

Welp, now I'm worried.

[neoplacebo]

Well, hell, if they were going to go in back when they went in, they should have had a policy like Slim Pickens related to all who would listen back in the "Blazing Saddles" movie. He was talking about sometime in his past when he and his cohorts would go in "a whompin' and a stompin' ever livin' thing in sight." That generally worked.

[O Really]

"Some people" (who were always considered authorities by Trump, and who include me) said back in 2002 that after the initial Taliban-stompin' that invading Afghanistan was a fool's errand. To kick a few Taliban asses is one thing, but to try to make over a country in your own flawed image is something else. If after say, five years of giving them billions in weaponry, billions in ummmm "training" and direct support in the field didn't show a lot of progress, one might guess it ainagonnahappen. And now, these well-equipped and "trained" elite Afghan government forces are apparently rolling over like a yellow lab when the Taliban shows up, giving them all the military goodies and hauling ass. And it's been 20 effin' years! If the US stayed for another 20, it still wouldn't matter. They won't eliminate the Taliban socially/culturally, and the Taliban won't give up, so all would be the same in another 20 as now, and as it was 20 years before after the Russians had wisely given up after only 12 years.

[neoplacebo]

Same as it ever was.

[GoCubsGo]

True dat.

Happening a little faster than predicted but inevitable.

IIRC, the reasons given by the military brass for us to stay all this time was to prevent the area from becoming a hot bed of terrorist training and activity that would be used against us.

I've always been pretty skeptical on that one, if terrorists really, really want to attack they'll find a way.