Slavery By Another Name

[Vrede too]

Doesn't matter to me. Having been duped and manipulated is cause for shame and even anger at their leaders. It's no excuse for 158 years of racism and whining about the people they took up arms against.

The racism is also from the north - maybe more so. Look at the Sundown town locations.

Sure, but I was only referring to the South's resentful racism, including Jim Crow. American racism is general is a broader topic.

Are Sundown town locations a fair comparison? Obviously, there are fewer southern towns with no Black residents.

[O Really]

Doesn't matter to me. Having been duped and manipulated is cause for shame and even anger at their leaders. It's no excuse for 158 years of racism and whining about the people they took up arms against.

The racism is also from the north - maybe more so. Look at the Sundown town locations.

Sure, but I was only referring to the South's resentful racism, including Jim Crow. American racism is general is a broader topic.

Are Sundown town locations a fair comparison? Obviously, there are fewer southern towns with no Black residents.

It's just as well Useless isn't still around to claim that racism is only a southern thang. We could offer as an exhibit Glendale, CA:

Until as late as the 1960s, Glendale was a sundown town. Nonwhites were required to leave city limits by a certain time each day or risk arrest and possible violence.[24] In the 1930s, Glendale and Burbank prevented the Civilian Conservation Corps from stationing African American workers in a local park, citing sundown town ordinances that both cities had adopted.[25] In 1964, Glendale was selected by George Lincoln Rockwell to be the West Coast headquarters of the American Nazi Party. After a legal battle with the city of Glendale, the party moved their headquarters to El Monte in 1966.[26][27]

[billy.pilgrim]

Doesn't matter to me. Having been duped and manipulated is cause for shame and even anger at their leaders. It's no excuse for 158 years of racism and whining about the people they took up arms against.

The racism is also from the north - maybe more so. Look at the Sundown town locations.

Sure, but I was only referring to the South's resentful racism, including Jim Crow. American racism is general is a broader topic.

Are Sundown town locations a fair comparison? Obviously, there are fewer southern towns with no Black residents.

A Sundown town is a huge indicator of racism. Check out New York or Wisconsin. There may be worse offenders. Georgia and Oregon are about tied. I only looked at 4, but those support my understanding of my racist country. These people created laws against blacks.
I just don't understand your partitioned view of American racism. Our country was founded on racism.

https://justice.tougaloo.edu/sundown-to ... state-map/

[billy.pilgrim]

I really hate lazy history, all full of good guys and bad guys. I see trump's 1776 history as the same dehumanizing labels we've used to make Vietnamese people easier to kill, same with the Iraqi people and same with the word slaver.
It's time to stop selectively attacking Southern people who grew up with slavery. Calling historical people "slavers" really doesn't help. Stop calling them anything and concentrate on the 40+ million slave in the world today.

I just don't understand why the south is so evil, yet not so the East India Company, India, Japan, Brazil and others.

It is History and should be taught to all.

I rarely read anything about Slavery, or the Trail of Tears that doesn't play loose with the truth.

Next up: the freedoms and the loss of freedoms under tenant farming.

[O Really]

I just don't understand why the south is so evil, yet not so the East India Company, India, Japan, Brazil and others.

It is History and should be taught to all.

I rarely read anything about Slavery, or the Trail of Tears that doesn't play loose with the truth.

Next up: the freedoms and the loss of freedoms under tenant farming.

Well, since you asked...
Not that it's necessarily a good thing, but history is usually taught with an emphasis on the country doing the teaching. Slavery isn't usually covered as a topic in itself, but as a part of certain times in US history. Other equally (or worse) guilty places aren't in that topic. Should be, could be, but aren't. Probably if you found a course on slavery throughout history, all those places would be covered. F'rinstance https://history.rutgers.edu/academics/u ... -history-3

As to why people pick on the South, I'd have to say that (present company excluded) they mostly bring it on themselves through continued reverence for civil war participants. Outside of the old former confederate states, you don't find much civil war statuary. Except for places like Gettysburg, you don't get much civil war cosplay. It's the current residents of the south that won't let go of the past.

[Vrede too]

... I just don't understand your partitioned view of American racism. Our country was founded on racism....

Racism is an American fact with its consequences shared by all states. Slavery, as it existed in 1860, is a particular manifestation of that racism and losing the war led to a distinct bitterness and vengeance visited upon the formerly enslaved. Hence the mostly southern KKK and the entirely southern Jim Crow. So, it's not that one version of racism is "better", but the justifications for it and its unique real world expressions are different.

That said, in 158 years the "Noble Cause" has leaked out of the South such that many northerners have taken it up as their own. Then, national RW political, religious and social orgs have made the choice to exploit and make common cause with southern racists.

[billy.pilgrim]

I just don't understand why the south is so evil, yet not so the East India Company, India, Japan, Brazil and others.

It is History and should be taught to all.

I rarely read anything about Slavery, or the Trail of Tears that doesn't play loose with the truth.

Next up: the freedoms and the loss of freedoms under tenant farming.

Well, since you asked...
Not that it's necessarily a good thing, but history is usually taught with an emphasis on the country doing the teaching. Slavery isn't usually covered as a topic in itself, but as a part of certain times in US history. Other equally (or worse) guilty places aren't in that topic. Should be, could be, but aren't. Probably if you found a course on slavery throughout history, all those places would be covered. F'rinstance https://history.rutgers.edu/academics/u ... -history-3

As to why people pick on the South, I'd have to say that (present company excluded) they mostly bring it on themselves through continued reverence for civil war participants. Outside of the old former confederate states, you don't find much civil war statuary. Except for places like Gettysburg, you don't get much civil war cosplay. It's the current residents of the south that won't let go of the past.

In my Alabama education I had never heard what an important part slavery played in building the cities of the NE.

I mostly agree that many southerners (redneck assholes) bring it on all of us until about 20 years ago when northern redneck assholes joined their ranks. I don't see any of them educated enough to hold any continued reverence for much of anything.

I've often wondered how the early 20th century Lost Cause bs and all the statues relates to all the Northern memories of that awful war forced onto the southern people through statues, coin and printed money. It almost seems like salt in the wound.

I'd like to see both sides accept the war as having been in the past. Did we help the South recover as we did the slaver Japanese?

[Vrede too]

... Did we help the South recover as we did the slaver Japanese?

Yes.

The Reconstruction era was a period in American history following the American Civil War (1861–1865) and lasting until approximately the Compromise of 1877. During Reconstruction, attempts were made to rebuild the country after the bloody Civil War, bring the former Confederate states back into the United States, and to reinstate the political, social, and economic legacies of slavery.

During the era, Congress abolished slavery, ended the remnants of Confederate secession in the South, and passed the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the Constitution (the Reconstruction Amendments) ostensibly guaranteeing the newly freed slaves (freedmen) the same civil rights as those of whites. Following a year of violent attacks against Blacks in the South, in 1866 Congress federalized the protection of civil rights, and placed formerly secessionist states under the control of the U.S. military, requiring ex-Confederate states to adopt guarantees for the civil rights of freedmen before they could be readmitted to the Union. In nearly all ex-Confederate states, Republican coalitions set out to transform Southern society. The Freedmen's Bureau and the U.S. Army both aimed to implement a post-slavery free labor economy, protect the legal rights of freedmen, negotiate labor contracts, and helped establish networks of schools and churches. Thousands of Northerners ("Carpetbaggers") came to the South to serve in the social and economic programs of Reconstruction.

However, this northern generosity and efforts towards justice were given dirty names by butthurt southern racists and former slavers:

Fighting against suffrage and full rights for freedmen, and in favor of giving the returning Southern states relatively free rein over former slaves, were the white "Redeemers"; Southern Bourbon Democrats; Vice President Andrew Johnson, a Southerner who assumed the presidency after the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln; and especially the Ku Klux Klan, which intimidated, terrorized, and murdered freedmen and Republicans, including Arkansas Congressman James M. Hinds, throughout the former Confederacy....

The Union should have stuck with an uncompromising occupation like in Japan until the South was fully able to join civilized society, as happened with Japan and Germany. Southern racism would have been smothered and the northern racism that you are irked by would have been largely quelled. Imagine if large numbers of fairly elected Blacks had remained in Congress and statehouses. We may have never needed the 1960s battles and the CRA and VRA 100 years later.

[O Really]

Problem is, a bunch of myths get built into the culture totally separate from what might have once been fact. F'rinstance, most people would probably tell you that Travis, Crockett, et. al. were brave defenders of Texas and the Alamo against the brutal aggression of Santa Anna and the Mexican army. Generally true, as far as it goes. But they never mention that they were fighting over land legit a part of Mexico and the Texicans were attempting to take it over and separate from Mexico. Travis et. al. were the squatters, the insurrectionists, the rebels and Santa Anna was protecting Mexico's land. Hero or villain depends on perspective and culture.

[billy.pilgrim]

Problem is, a bunch of myths get built into the culture totally separate from what might have once been fact. F'rinstance, most people would probably tell you that Travis, Crockett, et. al. were brave defenders of Texas and the Alamo against the brutal aggression of Santa Anna and the Mexican army. Generally true, as far as it goes. But they never mention that they were fighting over land legit a part of Mexico and the Texicans were attempting to take it over and separate from Mexico. Travis et. al. were the squatters, the insurrectionists, the rebels and Santa Anna was protecting Mexico's land. Hero or villain depends on perspective and culture.

The good and bad in everyone:

Crockett’s ability to view Indigenous people as human beings set him apart from most of his contemporaries. He delivered a speech to the House of Representatives on May 19, 1830, in which he explained that his conscience demanded his honesty, respect, and honor toward Indigenous nations. Crockett feared that the Act, combined with a lack of Congressional oversight, would lead to a miserable fate for the five tribes. Crockett knew many Chickasaws, and “nothing should ever induce him to vote to drive them west of the Mississippi.” And while he might suffer the abuse of Democrats and his Tennessee constituents, he would vote against removal with a “clear conscience.” Expulsion would be as “oppression with a vengeance.”

This “wicked, unjust measure” to forcibly evict human beings ran counter to the fundamental qualities of “honesty and right” that drove his character, whether political, mythical, or otherwise. Crockett’s independent spirit and conscience reinforced each other, for in his words, “I would rather be honestly and politically damned, than hypocritically immortalized.” His words challenge Americans to do the right thing when confronted by injustice and oppression.

[O Really]

Speaking of false historical narratives -

"It's easier to fool someone than to convince them they've been fooled"
Mark Twain

True statement, but although almost universally attributed to Mark Twain, there's no evidence that he actually ever said or wrote that.
Self-proving words.

[billy.pilgrim]

I can't find the right thread, but this Leary quote is the opposite of what I would have guessed.

Resolved, that the women of this nation in 1876, have greater cause for
discontent, rebellion and revolution than the men of 1776.
—Susan B. Anthony

Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
—Timothy Leary

https://open.substack.com/pub/thomhartm ... dium=email

[Vrede too]

I can't find the right thread, but this Leary quote is the opposite of what I would have guessed.

Resolved, that the women of this nation in 1876, have greater cause for
discontent, rebellion and revolution than the men of 1776.
—Susan B. Anthony

Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
—Timothy Leary

https://open.substack.com/pub/thomhartm ... ulture-8b0

Why? I think it's quite clever.

[billy.pilgrim]

I can't find the right thread, but this Leary quote is the opposite of what I would have guessed.

Resolved, that the women of this nation in 1876, have greater cause for
discontent, rebellion and revolution than the men of 1776.
—Susan B. Anthony

Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition.
—Timothy Leary

https://open.substack.com/pub/thomhartm ... ulture-8b0

Why? I think it's quite clever.

wow, I guess I must not understand the Leary quote, but it's so similar to a racist belief I've heard my whole life.
I think he is trying to say that using equality to men shouldn't be part of the equation, the goal should be bigger, as be all you can be. But maybe that's I've always liked him. The quote is just so similar to, Those blacks who want to be equal with White people are just lazy.

Again, I probably don't understand Leary.

[Vrede too]

wow, I guess I must not understand the Leary quote, but it's so similar to a racist belief I've heard my whole life.
I think he is trying to say that using equality to men shouldn't be part of the equation, the goal should be bigger, as be all you can be. But maybe that's I've always liked him. The quote is just so similar to, Those blacks who want to be equal with White people are just lazy.

Again, I probably don't understand Leary.

Idk the author or intent of the quip about Blacks, but I think Leary is humorously dissing men by saying that aspiring to be like them is a low bar for women to set.

I appreciate Leary's contributions, but I lost some respect for him when this was revealed:

Turn On, Tune In, Rat Out

Same with Gregg Allman:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/crim ... -for-drugs

[billy.pilgrim]

wow, I guess I must not understand the Leary quote, but it's so similar to a racist belief I've heard my whole life.
I think he is trying to say that using equality to men shouldn't be part of the equation, the goal should be bigger, as be all you can be. But maybe that's I've always liked him. The quote is just so similar to, Those blacks who want to be equal with White people are just lazy.

Again, I probably don't understand Leary.

Idk the author or intent of the quip about Blacks, but I think Leary is humorously dissing men by saying that aspiring to be like them is a low bar for women to set.

I appreciate Leary's contributions, but I lost some respect for him when this was revealed:

Turn On, Tune In, Rat Out

Same with Gregg Allman:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/crim ... -for-drugs

No author, just the belief held by every racist in the South. It's similar to, "what are you complaining about, you've had equality since 1964."

And there is so much about people that I almost wish I didn't known

[O Really]

"Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition."
—Timothy Leary

I took it as a humorous remark on the superiority of women. Could have been something Rita Rudner said. Has been erroneously attributed to Marilyn Monroe. It's on hundreds of posters/memes, none of which look related to billy.p's race issue. Rita Rudner did say "men are bears with furniture." Add "Black" to the front of the sentence and it's pretty bad. But there is no "Black."

[neoplacebo]

Robert Palmer had a song "Man Smart Woman Smarter" that I always liked. One line in it goes..."a little boy sat down and cried, an old man passing asked him why. He said I can't do what the big boys do...old man sat down and he cried, too." The women are smarter.

[O Really]

Robert Palmer was an addict, finding the objects of his addiction irresistible.

[billy.pilgrim]

Robert Palmer had a song "Man Smart Woman Smarter" that I always liked. One line in it goes..."a little boy sat down and cried, an old man passing asked him why. He said I can't do what the big boys do...old man sat down and he cried, too." The women are smarter.

And the Monroe quote is a bit like the Forbes guy telling people living in poverty that all they lack ambition.