Nature

[Vrede too]

We have:
The Hiking Thread
Weather
The Fishing Thread
The Global Warming thread.
Tree Hugger Thread
The Science Thread!
Animals
and even an Outer space thread

But, I could not find a generic nature or plants thread. Sorry if I didn't search long enough.

I know that goats love kudzu and vaguely wondered why it wasn't even more pernicious given the years of handwringing, but I've never been directly impacted and never looked into it. So, this is all new to me:

The myth of ‘Kudzilla’

Originally deliberate and beneficial, and not as horrible as its rep. Cool.

[billy.pilgrim]

We have:
The Hiking Thread
Weather
The Fishing Thread
The Global Warming thread.
Tree Hugger Thread
The Science Thread!
Animals
and even an Outer space thread

But, I could not find a generic nature or plants thread. Sorry if I didn't search long enough.

I know that goats love kudzu and vaguely wondered why it wasn't even more pernicious given the years of handwringing, but I've never been directly impacted and never looked into it. So, this is all new to me:

The myth of ‘Kudzilla’

Originally deliberate and beneficial, and not as horrible as its rep. Cool.

So says some guy.
Dude sounds a lot like those originally responsible for bringing this highly destructive invasive species into the southern US. The almighty Railroad needed to hide the erosion they were causing in their right-of-ways (fuck the adjoining property) thank kudzu and this guy too.

https://www.nature.org/en-us/about-us/w ... e-species/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... he%20state.

But some people see using an acre or 2 for BP medication or eating a few leaves as a positive, while ignoring the 7.5 million acres of destruction.
Just another Chinese import designed to destroy.

[O Really]

Yeah, the writer of that article is a descendant of the guy who said, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, did you enjoy the performance?"
As I understand it, Kudzu was pretty manageable in Japan, but the growing conditions in places like Georgia were so much better it turned into Kudzilla.

We're going to need a lot more goats.

[Vrede too]

The myth of ‘Kudzilla’

Originally deliberate and beneficial, and not as horrible as its rep. Cool.

So says some guy.
Dude sounds a lot like those originally responsible for bringing this highly destructive invasive species into the southern US. The almighty Railroad needed to hide the erosion they were causing in their right-of-ways (fuck the adjoining property) thank kudzu and this guy too.

The author makes the same point about railway erosion, except he says kudzu is actual erosion control rather than hiding it.

"some guy":

Haywood County resident Casey Lance Brown is a landscape futures consultant who visualizes environmental scenarios such as deextinction, post-mine reclamation and autonomous driving.

https://www.nature.org/en-us/about-us/w ... e-species/

Interesting, thanks. Brown is not claiming that kudzu is harmless, though.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7075552/

But some people see using an acre or 2 for BP medication or eating a few leaves as a positive, while ignoring the 7.5 million acres of destruction.
Just another Chinese import designed to destroy.

I'm not upset by logger issues. If they use best practices kudzu is not a problem. Instead, the ones most affected are clearcutting their tree farms for pulp.

I found this section from my ‘Kudzilla’ link to be especially illuminating.

... Three dissenting facts, if reported more widely, could easily dispel these fearmongering episodes about the plant scientifically known as Pueraria montana var. lobata. First, kudzu’s acreage has been vastly exaggerated. Even some of the U.S. Forest Service’s own scientists say it’s most likely declining in the southern U.S. and is far less of a threat than some other invasive species. Second, kudzu generally doesn’t tolerate shade well and will not penetrate an intact forest, which is the Southeast’s dominant landscape. Third, kudzu propagates vegetatively (through rooted crown nodes on runners) and rarely produces viable seeds in this region.

Collectively, these botanical characteristics constrain the footprint of kudzu in Southern Appalachia to already disturbed areas. So much for exponential spread.

Pattern recognition goes a long way toward understanding the hows and whys of kudzu patches in our area. The most relevant pattern is connected to transportation infrastructure. The travel corridors that first opened the region to development focused on rivers, valleys and the lowest-lying gaps that allowed passage to the next river valley. Old railroad corridors, early turnpike roads and the first set of state roadways all concentrated near the primary rivers and mountain gaps.

To a striking degree, you can follow those initial infrastructural corridors, where most early development/ecological disturbance occurred, and see a sinuous gallery of kudzu. And because Western North Carolina’s newer interstates and roads still tend to align with those corridors, kudzu can be overrepresented in travelers’ perceptions....

So, it's land disturbance that's the real issue. I don't like invasives, flora or fauna, but visually I prefer a kudzu patch to a barren, eroding road cut.

[Whack9]

Japanese knotweed can go to hell though.

[Vrede too]

Japanese knotweed can go to hell though.

Once again, EVERYTHING is online:

Invasive Japanese knotweed worse than kudzu, threatens East Tennessee ecosystems

[Whack9]

Japanese knotweed can go to hell though.

Once again, EVERYTHING is online:

Invasive Japanese knotweed worse than kudzu, threatens East Tennessee ecosystems

The stuff is all over the reedy river. Even just started sprouting in the newly restored riparian zone of unity park.

[billy.pilgrim]

The myth of ‘Kudzilla’

Originally deliberate and beneficial, and not as horrible as its rep. Cool.

So says some guy.
Dude sounds a lot like those originally responsible for bringing this highly destructive invasive species into the southern US. The almighty Railroad needed to hide the erosion they were causing in their right-of-ways (fuck the adjoining property) thank kudzu and this guy too.

The author makes the same point about railway erosion, except he says kudzu is actual erosion control rather than hiding it.

"some guy":

Haywood County resident Casey Lance Brown is a landscape futures consultant who visualizes environmental scenarios such as deextinction, post-mine reclamation and autonomous driving.

https://www.nature.org/en-us/about-us/w ... e-species/

Interesting, thanks. Brown is not claiming that kudzu is harmless, though.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7075552/

But some people see using an acre or 2 for BP medication or eating a few leaves as a positive, while ignoring the 7.5 million acres of destruction.
Just another Chinese import designed to destroy.

I'm not upset by logger issues. If they use best practices kudzu is not a problem. Instead, the ones most affected are clearcutting their tree farms for pulp.

I found this section from my ‘Kudzilla’ link to be especially illuminating.

... Three dissenting facts, if reported more widely, could easily dispel these fearmongering episodes about the plant scientifically known as Pueraria montana var. lobata. First, kudzu’s acreage has been vastly exaggerated. Even some of the U.S. Forest Service’s own scientists say it’s most likely declining in the southern U.S. and is far less of a threat than some other invasive species. Second, kudzu generally doesn’t tolerate shade well and will not penetrate an intact forest, which is the Southeast’s dominant landscape. Third, kudzu propagates vegetatively (through rooted crown nodes on runners) and rarely produces viable seeds in this region.

Collectively, these botanical characteristics constrain the footprint of kudzu in Southern Appalachia to already disturbed areas. So much for exponential spread.

Pattern recognition goes a long way toward understanding the hows and whys of kudzu patches in our area. The most relevant pattern is connected to transportation infrastructure. The travel corridors that first opened the region to development focused on rivers, valleys and the lowest-lying gaps that allowed passage to the next river valley. Old railroad corridors, early turnpike roads and the first set of state roadways all concentrated near the primary rivers and mountain gaps.

To a striking degree, you can follow those initial infrastructural corridors, where most early development/ecological disturbance occurred, and see a sinuous gallery of kudzu. And because Western North Carolina’s newer interstates and roads still tend to align with those corridors, kudzu can be overrepresented in travelers’ perceptions....

So, it's land disturbance that's the real issue. I don't like invasives, flora or fauna, but visually I prefer a kudzu patch to a barren, eroding road cut.

He's wrong, dead wrong about kudzu stopping erosion. It never has and never will. Under all though green leaves is almost barren ground producing streams of red clay running into streams and rivers.

"Haywood County resident Casey Lance Brown is a landscape futures consultant who visualizes environmental scenarios such as deextinction, post-mine reclamation and autonomous driving"

Is he also a social influencer?

Vrede, we can find two sides to anything. You might want to spend more time looking at the other side of this.
I agree that it's probably under control in some environments and may look beneficial there, but it is still destroying forests in Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi by consuming trees, hiding erosion and devaluing property.

"Even some of the U.S. Forest Service’s own scientists say it’s most likely declining in the southern U.S. and is far less of a threat than some other invasive species"

Hardly comforting. "Even some"


I don't know about western NC, but I do know that the high and mighty railroads planted the crap and it spread from there.

[neoplacebo]

If kudzu made you get high if you smoked it or ate it, they'd get rid of it in a fucking hurry. Within ten years there would be no kudzu in sight.

[Vrede too]

He's wrong, dead wrong about kudzu stopping erosion. It never has and never will. Under all though green leaves is almost barren ground producing streams of red clay running into streams and rivers.

, but there are folks that disagree with you.

The Gardening: Kudzu | Types, Propagation, Problems, and Uses

... As it belongs to the subfamily of Fabaceae (legume plants), that’s why they have a strong role in nitrogen fixation. This group of vine plants has deep root systems so, it become quite a difficult task to de-root it. The beneficial aspect of its roots is it save soil from water or wind-based erosion and soil loss....

Its growth is quite rapid as compared to other family members. And it has that deep root system helping it to survive in strong winds or less groundwater level. This also provides soil protection against wind and water erosion....

Uses of Kudzu
1. The deep root system prevents soil erosion

ScienceDirect: Dinitrogen fixation by the legume cover crop Pueraria phaseoloides and transfer of fixed N to Hevea brasiliensis—Impact on tree growth and vulnerability to drought

... Introducing an N2-fixing legume cover crop in rubber plantations may reduce runoff and soil erosion as well as increasing the availability of nutrients but may also increase competition for water....

... One option to ensure the sustainability of young tree plantations in such conditions may be to plant a perennial N2-fixing cover crop such as Pueraria phaseoloides in the interrows (Broughton, 1977). Although this legume has no direct economic value for farmers, it may provide valuable services such as soil protection against erosion, N2-fixation and N transfer to the trees, soil carbon sequestration (Cherr et al., 2006, Schroth et al., 2001) and weed control (Bhaskar and Dey, 2010).

TheWorldOfSurvival: Kudzu: The Little-Known Survival Food

Soil Erosion – Kudzu has been traditionally been planted to stop soil erosion.

"Haywood County resident Casey Lance Brown is a landscape futures consultant who visualizes environmental scenarios such as deextinction, post-mine reclamation and autonomous driving"

Is he also a social influencer?

Casey Lance Brown has some credentials, no need to be snarky.

Vrede, we can find two sides to anything. You might want to spend more time looking at the other side of this.
I agree that it's probably under control in some environments and may look beneficial there, but it is still destroying forests in Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi by consuming trees, hiding erosion and devaluing property.

Another "some guy":

Bill Finch is the lead horticulture and science advisor to the Mobile Botanical Gardens in Alabama. He is also the long-time garden columnist for the Alabama Press-Register.

Smithsonian Magazine: The True Story of Kudzu, the Vine That Never Truly Ate the South
Bill Finch

"Even some of the U.S. Forest Service’s own scientists say it’s most likely declining in the southern U.S. and is far less of a threat than some other invasive species"

Hardly comforting. "Even some"

It just establishes some doubt re the absolutist position, which is all Casey Lance Brown did.

I don't know about western NC, but I do know that the high and mighty railroads planted the crap and it spread from there.

Casey Lance Brown and you agree on it being widely planted by the railroads, but it was also promoted by the govt and planted by farmers for other erosion control, for awhile.

[billy.pilgrim]

So, we can keep exchanging different experts facts and opinions. The Finch article is interesting. I'll give him some weight. No so much Mr. Brown's credentials: "landscape futures consultant who visualizes environmental scenarios such as deextinction, post-mine reclamation and autonomous driving" too much like so many made up titles of social media experts.

But I'm mostly having a hard time accepting you defending an invasive species.

Here's another good article.

https://www.aces.edu/blog/topics/forest ... 20Nebraska.


"The vines may grow up to 60 feet in a single season and as much as 1 foot during a single day in the early summer. This amount of vine growth is supported by starchy, tuberous roots that can reach a depth of 12 feet in older patches and weigh as much as 200 to 300 pounds."


Conclusions

The history of kudzu in the United States is a compelling story, but also a cautionary tale of how good plants can go bad. Although scientists now use risk assessment tools to evaluate the potential for invasiveness in new plant introductions, it is still an imperfect process, and there is much yet to be learned. Without a doubt, kudzu is here to stay. Although landowners can get effective kudzu control, eradication from the United States is not currently feasible. It is clear that kudzu is continuing to expand its range in the United States and has yet to reach its ecological potential. Future research will help clarify the full impacts of kudzu and what can be done about it.

 


Reviewed by Nancy J. Loewenstein, Extension Specialist and Research Fellow, Forestry and Wildlife Sciences, Auburn University. Originally written by Nancy J. Loewenstein, Extension Specialist and Research Fellow, Forestry and Wildlife Sciences, Auburn University; Stephen F. Enloe, former Extension Weed Specialist, Auburn University; John W. Everest, former Extension Weed Specialist, Professor Emeritus, Auburn University; James H. Miller, Emeritus Research Ecologist, USDA Forest Service; Donald M. Ball, former Extension Agronomist, Professor Emeritus, Auburn University; and Michael G. Patterson, former Extension Weed Specialist, Professor Emeritus, Auburn University

Reviewed March 2022, History and Use of Kudzu in the Southeastern United States, ANR-2221

[Vrede too]

So, we can keep exchanging different experts facts and opinions. The Finch article is interesting. I'll give him some weight. No so much Mr. Brown's credentials: "landscape futures consultant who visualizes environmental scenarios such as deextinction, post-mine reclamation and autonomous driving" too much like so many made up titles of social media experts.

If you were skeptical you could have looked.

CASEY LANCE BROWN
Anthroposcenic Art, Hyperobjective-Speculative Design, and Landscape futurist

Casey Lance Brown is a landscape futurist who studied at Duke University, Harvard Design School, and as a Rome Prize fellow at the American Academy in Rome. Originally trained as a landscape architect, he digitally fabricates super-resolution imagery to dramatize the novel environments and hyperobjects of the Anthropocene.... He also works as a creative consultant on novel environments for Colossal Biosciences (de-extinction habitats), Toyota Research Institute (autonomous mobility), Center for Advanced Urbanism at MIT (suburban futures), and various US and EU governmental agencies....

AWARDS + FELLOWSHIPS + GRANTS ...

Not a bioscientist, but he seems to excel in kudzu-relevant fields.

But I'm mostly having a hard time accepting you defending an invasive species.

"defending"? All I've posted is arguments that it's not the monster that I'd been led to believe. As I said:

So, it's land disturbance that's the real issue. I don't like invasives, flora or fauna, but visually I prefer a kudzu patch to a barren, eroding road cut.

Not automatically accepting an absolutist position is not "defending".

Here's another good article.

https://www.aces.edu/blog/topics/forest ... ed-states/


"The vines may grow up to 60 feet in a single season and as much as 1 foot during a single day in the early summer. This amount of vine growth is supported by starchy, tuberous roots that can reach a depth of 12 feet in older patches and weigh as much as 200 to 300 pounds."

Thanks. Seems to me that roots that go 12 feet down would help prevent erosion. It was the whole point, and we can't just blame the railroads. From your article:

... In the 1930s, kudzu reached the height of its prominence. The Soil Erosion Service (later renamed the Soil Conservation Service and now the Natural Resource Conservation Service), established by Congress in 1933, was charged to reduce soil erosion caused by poor farming practices in the South. About 85 million kudzu plants were given to southern landowners by the Soil Erosion Service for land revitalization and to reduce soil erosion and add nitrogen to the soil. The Civilian Conservation Corps also planted kudzu throughout the South. The government offered up to $8 per acre as an incentive for farmers to plant their land in kudzu. About 3 million acres of kudzu had been planted on farms by 1946. Ironically, due to difficulties in establishment, many of these initial plantings did not survive.

In the 1940s, numerous kudzu clubs were formed throughout the South. Kudzu festivals were held, and kudzu queens were crowned. In 1943, Channing Cope, a journalist and radio show host in Covington, Georgia, founded the Kudzu Club of America, which eventually had a membership of about 20,000 individuals. He became known as the “Father of Kudzu.”


Figure 6. During the 1900s, kudzu was promoted as an inexpensive forage and for erosion control.

Were the govt and all these farmers as uncaring and evil as the railroads? The article never retracts these erosion control claims to match your position, but it does describe how kudzu promotion ended in the 1950s because it "had largely become a nuisance."

Conclusions

The history of kudzu in the United States is a compelling story, but also a cautionary tale of how good plants can go bad. Although scientists now use risk assessment tools to evaluate the potential for invasiveness in new plant introductions, it is still an imperfect process, and there is much yet to be learned. Without a doubt, kudzu is here to stay. Although landowners can get effective kudzu control, eradication from the United States is not currently feasible. It is clear that kudzu is continuing to expand its range in the United States and has yet to reach its ecological potential. Future research will help clarify the full impacts of kudzu and what can be done about it.

That's a more measured stance than the 'Kudzilla' claims, which is really all that Finch and Brown have stated.

[O Really]

I don't care if goats like it. I don't care if it has some redeeming features. I don't care if "mile a minute" and "ate the South" claims are exaggerated. I've seen what I've seen, and unless they can come up with a way to turn it into Kudzu Green to feed the world, I say it's evil.

[O Really]

More about the super-bloom
https://www.wellandgood.com/california- ... /369693/10

[billy.pilgrim]

So what if roots go 12 ft deep if they're 12 ft apart.
I've seen the red clay runoff from these kudzu fields and I've heard farmers complain that they can't bush hog the kudzu for fear of turning a tractor over in the hidden gullys.

One of my biggest "hates" related to kudzu is that no one has control over the railroads that planted it in their narrow strips of land without concern for the inaccessible forests where it almost immediately spread.

Example of their power. A few years ago, in the midst of a fifty year type drought, the railroad through Mobile and Baldwin Counties cleaned up their kudzu over-grown right of ways with flame throwers from the rear of a slow moving work car, setting fires to private land along the way without consequence. They refused all requests to stop.

And then there was the time I lived across a dirt road from a kudzu field. I can still see all the sunbathing rattle snakes in that road as I turned onto the street. After a few close calls neither of us cared about losing the rental deposits.

Again, maybe it works in a more northern climate, but it's an evil invasive plant where I live.

I'm still not sure about Lance. "studied at" could mean he took a night class. So far I don't see any degrees.

[Vrede too]

More about the super-bloom
https://www.wellandgood.com/california- ... /369693/10

Too many great ones to choose a fav, thanks.

[billy.pilgrim]

More about the super-bloom
https://www.wellandgood.com/california- ... /369693/10

Too many great ones to choose a fav, thanks.

#7, is that a fern with yellow flowers? It's beautiful.
I thought ferns didn't have flowers.

Anyone driven through north Mississippi when everything you could see for miles was blooming sunflowers. Even crops can be beautiful.

[Vrede too]

More about the super-bloom
https://www.wellandgood.com/california- ... /369693/10

#7, is that a fern with yellow flowers? It's beautiful.
I thought ferns didn't have flowers.

Anyone driven through north Mississippi when everything you could see for miles was blooming sunflowers. Even crops can be beautiful.

You are correct about ferns:

A fern (Polypodiopsida or Polypodiophyta /ˌpɒliˌpɒdiˈɒfɪtə, -əˈfaɪtə/)[citation needed] is a member of a group of vascular plants (plants with xylem and phloem) that reproduce via spores and have neither seeds nor flowers....

Amsinckia is a genus of flowering plants commonly known as fiddlenecks. The common name is derived from the flower stems, which curl over at the top in a manner reminiscent of the head of a fiddle. Fiddlenecks are in the family Boraginaceae, along with borage and forget-me-nots....

Also found this:

What Is A Flowering Fern: Hardy Gloxinia Fern Information And Care

What is a flowering fern? The term refers to hardy gloxinia fern (Incarvillea delavayi), which isn’t actually a fern, but earns the nickname for its deeply divided, fern-like leaves. Unlike true ferns, hardy gloxinia ferns glow with pink, trumpet-shaped flowers from spring to late summer....

[Vrede too]

...Invasive Japanese knotweed worse than kudzu, threatens East Tennessee ecosystems

The stuff is all over the reedy river. Even just started sprouting in the newly restored riparian zone of unity park.

This guy wants you to add wildflowers to your lawn:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/pet ... r-AA1aFYLb

[Whack9]

...Invasive Japanese knotweed worse than kudzu, threatens East Tennessee ecosystems

The stuff is all over the reedy river. Even just started sprouting in the newly restored riparian zone of unity park.

This guy wants you to add wildflowers to your lawn:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/pet ... r-AA1aFYLb

That dude is full of knowledge! I follow him on the socials. Have learned a lot from him.