Immigration

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Cannonpointer
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by Cannonpointer »

Vrede wrote:
Cannonpointer wrote:...Do the math...
Not that I'm criticizing, it sounds like you did a good thing and far more than many employers of illegals do, but isn't a buck per hour more a net savings to your employer over the actual cost of paying a yank or legal immigrant given the taxes, benefits, unemployment, etc. that they cost a company? If so, you might want to go easy on the crowing about something that actually fattened the corporate wallet.
I am not crowing that I did the right thing - to do other would have left me with shame. But the answer to your question is yes. We saved that money and passed it on to the employee. Our business model and our efforts were sufficiently clever and functional that we did not need to "get over" on anyone but our competition. That's plenty to crow about, in my book. If you want to hear me crow, start a thread about ingenious marketing schemes and brilliant management strategies.

Keeping vendors honest is the key. The rest, I will save for that thread.
_________________________________________________________________________________

A burglar can only steal what you have.
A banker can steal what you have, and what you're GONNA have.

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bannination
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Re: Immigration

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JTA
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by JTA »

What are the main qualms with our current immigration system, and if you could implement reforms, what would you do?
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

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JTA wrote:What are the main qualms with our current immigration system, and if you could implement reforms, what would you do?
The main qualms - at least among the non-bigoted, include the problem that we have a large part of the economy dependent on immigrant labor, but do not provide a means for them to become legal. Before 9/11, there was a program through which a person who entered the US illegally could pay some money, file some forms, jump through some hoops, and be legal. The number of illegals has increased over the years because people still keep coming here (since they can get jobs), and they can't become legal.

IMNVHO, there are several things that could be done. (1) offer a work permit to anyone who gets a job. Reimplement a path to legality. Or, conversely, if we really wanted to pick our own apples, we could put real teeth into prohibition of hiring illegals. Now, the employer only has to have a reasonably believable I-9 on file and it has fulfilled its obligations. If the employer is caught with illegals, the fine usually isn't as much as has already been saved by using the illegals. And it's not usually so much a low hourly rate that creates savings - it's the taxes, social security, etc. that they avoid by paying cash, and having serfs that can't usually complain.

So pick one - either dry up the available jobs for illegals or recognize that we really do need agricultural workers (and other trades) and make it easier to work here legally.

That's me. I'm thinking the main qualms with a lot of Republicans is that "they's meskins and they gonna take our jobs and make us speak spanish."

JTA
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by JTA »

O Really wrote:
JTA wrote:What are the main qualms with our current immigration system, and if you could implement reforms, what would you do?
The main qualms - at least among the non-bigoted, include the problem that we have a large part of the economy dependent on immigrant labor, but do not provide a means for them to become legal. Before 9/11, there was a program through which a person who entered the US illegally could pay some money, file some forms, jump through some hoops, and be legal. The number of illegals has increased over the years because people still keep coming here (since they can get jobs), and they can't become legal.

IMNVHO, there are several things that could be done. (1) offer a work permit to anyone who gets a job. Reimplement a path to legality. Or, conversely, if we really wanted to pick our own apples, we could put real teeth into prohibition of hiring illegals. Now, the employer only has to have a reasonably believable I-9 on file and it has fulfilled its obligations. If the employer is caught with illegals, the fine usually isn't as much as has already been saved by using the illegals. And it's not usually so much a low hourly rate that creates savings - it's the taxes, social security, etc. that they avoid by paying cash, and having serfs that can't usually complain.

So pick one - either dry up the available jobs for illegals or recognize that we really do need agricultural workers (and other trades) and make it easier to work here legally.

That's me. I'm thinking the main qualms with a lot of Republicans is that "they's meskins and they gonna take our jobs and make us speak spanish."
I never hear anyone complaining about H1B Visa program when complaining about the "taking [of] our jobs" by foreign workers. I guess it's better than straight up outsourcing the jobs. At least most of the money they spend will go back into the economy.
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.

JTA
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by JTA »

make us speak spanish."
Do you think it would be beneficial for the US to make English an official language? Or do you think this would be a bad idea?
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.

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neoplacebo
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by neoplacebo »

Vrede wrote:Ditto what O Really posted, plus:

Our current immigration system is an unrealistic fantasy trying to deny the realities of market supply and demand, just like drug prohibition.

NAFTA and US GMO corn created many of the economic refugees while our drug prohibition has created many of the refugees from violence.

Our own security is improved when a troubled neighbor has a safety valve.

We should embrace family-oriented hard workers that are merely trying to better their situation, they compare favorably to many Americans. Our culture ain't so wonderful that it can't benefit from new blood, as it always has in the past.
Ditto, head.

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Wneglia
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by Wneglia »

Vrede wrote:Most in US wouldn't eject illegal immigrants; a minority would OK citizenship

:lol: The comments are full of paranoid wingnuts claiming that the poll results are some conspiracy and a lie. Grow up, xenophobes, as always happens in America - Irish, Chinese, women, blacks, gays - most of us reject your hating and your pitiful cries of being such a victim.
Hillary would send 'em back

:mrgreen:

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by O Really »

Wneglia wrote:
Vrede wrote:Most in US wouldn't eject illegal immigrants; a minority would OK citizenship

:lol: The comments are full of paranoid wingnuts claiming that the poll results are some conspiracy and a lie. Grow up, xenophobes, as always happens in America - Irish, Chinese, women, blacks, gays - most of us reject your hating and your pitiful cries of being such a victim.
Hillary would send 'em back

:mrgreen:
Well, yeah, except the "'em" in the Hillary article is the Central American, ummm, "children" the majority of whom are 15 -18, and the survey cited by Vrede was, I believe, regarding the existing largely Mexican population.

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Wneglia
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by Wneglia »

Vrede wrote:Also, from Wneglia's link:
...Mrs. Clinton also said the nation must pass comprehensive immigration reform that includes a path to citizenship.
In other words, Wneglia is comparing manzanas and naranjas.
Some people can't spell :lol:

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:mrgreen:

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Wneglia
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by Wneglia »

Vrede wrote:
Wneglia wrote:Some people can't spell :lol:
Peace Apple?
Not if Danish or Swedish

:mrgreen:

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rstrong
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by rstrong »

Vrede wrote:NAFTA and US GMO corn created many of the economic refugees
I have some serious doubts about this. Mexican corn production was slowly rising before NAFTA, and it's continued to rise ever since.

The number of farming jobs in Canada and the US is a tiny fraction of what it used to be - despite greatly increased production - because of mechanization. We did this over one hundred years. Mexico got it all at once. Take NAFTA and US GMO corn out of the picture, and I strongly suspect those farming jobs would have disappeared regardless.

It seems like one for the Spurious Correlations web site.

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rstrong
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by rstrong »

And still, Mexican corn production has continued to rise.

You can certainly link GM corn to bio-diversity. (In fact you can link **non**-GM crops to a lack of bio-diversity. One specific breed of bananas being what the western world wants, for example. The same thing happens with a couple other fruits.)

But with no drop in Mexican corn production, it sounds like they're simply producing crops with less workers. Just like the US and Canada did.

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rstrong
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by rstrong »

Vrede wrote:
rstrong wrote:And still, Mexican corn production has continued to rise...
At the cost of millions of small scale farmers thrown out of work and forced into the cities or across the border.
And still, Mexican corn production has continued to rise.

The same thing happened in the US and Canada; the small scale farms are still there, but they employ a whole lot less farmers than they used to. It wasn't free trade or GMOs that did it; it was mechanization. It happened here over a century. It happened in Mexico in a much shorted time span.

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rstrong
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Re: Immigration

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That's still a lack of evidence that NAFTA or GMOs were bad for Mexico.

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rstrong
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by rstrong »

Your articles showed correlation. But as the Spurious Correlations site demonstrates, correlation but does not imply causation.

I've given an alternate theory: The mechanization that led to similar farming job losses in the US and Canada. Given that Mexican corn production has continued to rise, it seems more reasonable.


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Ragin Rebel
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Re: Immigration

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https://www.change.org/p/u-s-house-of-r ... tent=large



Petitioning U.S. House of Representatives and Senate
This petition will be delivered to:
U.S. House of Representatives
U.S. Senate
Terrance Gainer Sergeant at Arms
Arrest Barack Hussein Obama on multiple charges of crimes against the citizens of the United States of America

Daryn Bogart
Trenton, NJ
We, the undersigned, do hereby petition the U.S. Senate & The House of Representatives to issue a warrant for arrest and Terrance Gainer, current Sergeant at Arms to enforce that warrant for arrest for one Barack Hussein Obama, current "President of the United States" for acts of terrorism and sedition for acts often including subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. His acts of sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws.

On Thursdady, November 20, 2014 Mr. Obama did with malice and forethought violate the laws of our great nation by suborning and openly bypassing the requirement of a bill to be introduced and passed by the Seanate and Congress as a whole for immigration reform. Mr. Obama took it upon himself to grant what is tantamount to immunity from prosecution and deportation for millions of individuals currently located within the borders fo the United states of America that entered into our borders illegally.

Mr. Obama has also acted with malice and forthought against American citizens commit both theft by deception as well as Grand Larceny.

A person commits theft if he obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he intentionally:

(1) Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention, or other state of mind; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise; or

(2) Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or

(3) Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship; or

(4) Uses a credit card, charge plate, or any other instrument which purports to evidence an undertaking to pay for property or services delivered or rendered to or upon the order of a designated person or bearer (a) where such instrument has been stolen, forged, revoked, or canceled, or where for any other reason its use by the actor is unauthorized, or (b) where the actor does not have the intention and ability to meet all obligations to the issuer arising out of his use of the instrument.

Mr. Obama did knowingly and with forthought used taxpayer dollars as well as the Credit of the United States of America to fund illegal operations and criminal activity by providing funding for the aforementioned persons found to have entered the borders of our sovereign nation illegally.

Mr. Obama further has committed acts of Treason against the United States, by adhering to our Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. The aforementioned illegals are considered to be Enemies of the State by knowingly, purposely acting with malice and forthought, aided and comforted not only the persons invading our borders but also enemies abroad by supplying groups listed on known terrorist watch lists with military weapons to be used against our troops in combat operations as well as against American interests abroad.

The American voters spoke with a CLEAR message on November 2, 2014 stating that we desperately need a change from the actions of the Democrat Party and the current individual holding the title of President of the United States, Mr Barack Hussein Obama. Rather than heeding the call of the American citizens, Mr. Obama took it upon himself to bypass not only the wishes of the taxpayers but completely bypassed Congress and executed and Abuse of Authority and an Abuse of Power by holding a nationally televised press conference to state very clearly that he was going to act alone and sign an Executive Order to continue to Aid & Comfort those who did not just cross our borders illegally but have essentially created an enemy invasion. A few people are "illegal border crossers". When he refers to a very much understated figure of 5,000,000 people, that is considered to be an invasion.

The Democrat controlled Congress and Mr. Obama have essentially STOLEN an approximate figure of 583 Billion American tax dollars per year to be spent on these invaders when Federal and State tax dollars are meant to be collected for the Sole use of bettering the lives of the American citizen as well as the embetterment of American interests.

The current U.S. economy is in a shambles with many United States military veterans in need of aid and comfort being turned away and left homeless ont he street to fend for themselves without food, water, shelter or medical care, but yet tens of thousands of individuals that have invaded our borders are being housed on military bases and many other locations funded by the U.S. government. Our current military see cuts in their pay and benefits as they defend our country and the Constitution of the United States, but enemy invaders are welcomed with open arms and given every form of aid and comfort Mr. Obama can steal away from American citizens.

I urge Congress, the U.S. Senate, The U.S. House of Representatives and Mr. Terrance Gainer to act in the best interests of the American public and place Mr. Obama under immediate arrest so that he cannot further cause irrepairable harm to this great nation.

I urge all who read this petition to not only sign it but to pass this along to every individual that you possibly can. I want the elected officials of this nation to finally grow a backbone and do what is best for the American taxpayers and for our future generations rather than stand idly by while Mr. Obama continues to attempt to pad the Democrat voting rolls.

The President is the head of the executive branch and plays a large role in making America's laws. His job is to approve the laws that CONGRESS creates. When the Senate and the House approve a bill, they send it to the President. If he agrees with the law, he signs it and the law goes into effect. If the President does not like a bill, he can refuse to sign it. When he does this, it is called a veto.

If the President vetoes a bill, it will most likely never become a law. Congress can override a veto, but to do so two-thirds of the Members of Congress must vote against the President.

Despite all of his power, the President CANNOT LEGALLY write bills. He can propose a bill, but a member of Congress must submit it for him. In addition to playing a key role in the lawmaking process, the President has several duties. He serves as the American Head of State, meaning that he meets with the leaders of other countries and can make treaties with them. However, the Senate must approve any treaty before it becomes official.

The President is also the Chief of the Government. That means that he is technically the boss of every government worker. Also, the President is the official head of the U.S. military. He can authorize the use of troops overseas without declaring war. To officially declare war, though, he must get the approval of the Congress.

No elected President of the United States since the birth of this nation has intentionally illegally bypassed Congress with such contempt and disregard for the interests of the American taxpayer like Mr Obama has done since taking office. It's time that he be arrested, charged, brought to a public trial and when found guilty, be punished accordingly. I need not post what the regularly carried punishment is for acts of treason. I would personally be happy to see Mr. Obama stripped of his citizenship, deported and if he were to ever set foot on American soil again anywhere on the face of this planet, he would then be summarily executed on the spot. I do not want him to sit in an American jail cell and have the privilege of continuing to live off of the American taxpayer. I would be more than happy to carry him on my back and/or shoulders to the nearest international airport and flown to his home country of Kenya or to other nations in which await his arrival to be tried and punished for crimes against humanity.
LETTER TO
U.S. House of Representatives
U.S. Senate
Terrance Gainer Sergeant at Arms
Arrest Barrack Hussein Obama
" I will stand with the Muslim's should the political winds shift in an ugly direction." ------Barack Hussein Obama

The shift occurred September 11, 2001 and he kept his word on that one.
It was evident again on September 11, 2012.

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neoplacebo
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by neoplacebo »

:lol: incredible; why don't you go and research the history of previous presidents taking very similar actions. You're probably one of those raging morons that vote against their best interests and are too stupid to even realize it. You are doomed to an existence of blind stupidity. Good luck.

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Ragin Rebel
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Re: Immigration

Unread post by Ragin Rebel »

neoplacebo wrote::lol: incredible; why don't you go and research the history of previous presidents taking very similar actions. You're probably one of those raging morons that vote against their best interests and are too stupid to even realize it. You are doomed to an existence of blind stupidity. Good luck.

Not possible, I'm not a Low information Democrat. And if you will look back at the results of November 4th, Democrats got shellacked. The majority has spoken!!! And we are strongly urging our representatives to act on our will. Obama has many offenses to be impeached for, such as releasing terrorists without the consent of congress, aiding his Muslim brothers causes, among other things.
" I will stand with the Muslim's should the political winds shift in an ugly direction." ------Barack Hussein Obama

The shift occurred September 11, 2001 and he kept his word on that one.
It was evident again on September 11, 2012.

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