Syria/Iraq

[billy.pilgrim]

I think I have a solution to all the problems in that area of the world. Let's put Lindsay Graham in charge of Iraq, John McCain in charge of Syria, and Mike Huckabee in charge of Yemen. It's clear to me that none of those guys would put up with the shit that's going on now in those places. We could also put Darrell Issa in an advisory position in Somalia so he could root out scandals and nip them in the bud.

great idea, as long as we send them there

mcloser could go shopping in the market like he always does

[rstrong]

"Not only will Americans go to your country and kill all your people, but they'll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad."

[Vrede too]

West 'ignored Russian offer in 2012 to have Syria's Assad step aside'
Exclusive: Senior negotiator describes rejection of alleged proposal – since which time tens of thousands have been killed and millions displaced

What if Americans Had Known in 2013 that U.S. rejected Syria Deal in 2012?

... The Guardian reported on Tuesday that the former Finnish president and Nobel peace prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari, who had been involved in negotiations in 2012, said that in 2012 Russia had proposed a process of peace settlement between the Syrian government and its opponents that would have included President Bashar al-Assad stepping down. But, according to Ahtisaari, the United States was so confident that Assad would soon be violently overthrown that it rejected the proposal.

The catastrophic Syrian civil war since 2012 has followed U.S. adherence to actual U.S. policy in which peaceful compromise is usually the last resort. Does the U.S. government believe violence tends to produce better results? The record shows otherwise. More likely it believes that violence will lead to greater U.S.-control, while satisfying the war industry....

[Vrede too]

I've been getting lots of Syria refugee petitions, but haven't been signing them.

On the one hand, I recognize our role in causing the crisis, have tons of compassion for the victims, understand the massive security checks that are employed and detest the bigoted xenophobia.

Otoh, I think these are the nonviolent people that will be needed to eventually rebuild Syria from the ashes and wonder if it isn't best if they are supported heavily in the region so they are most likely to someday return and do that.

What do y'all think?

[rstrong]

It's not an exaggeration to say that they're fleeing from genocide. That the only thing stopping a small-scale genocide from going large-scale is the sheer number of people who have fled. Or that it's unreported because Islamic State kills reporters.

My country unfortunately turned back a ship load of Jews fleeing the Nazis, when they arrived on our shore in WWII. Most of them soon died in the death camps. It would not have made us look better to have said, "But you'll be needed to eventually rebuild Europe!"

Let's not also forget that pre-ISIS conditions were awful and dangerous. Even if the Islamic State were to magically disappear, things would be even worse than before they formed. A big cluster of civil wars between the Sunnis, Shiites, Alawites, Kurds and Christians. There will be open war between a now more or less independent Kurdish area and Turkey, which has been bombing them rather than ISIS. Bashar al-Assad, now backed by Putin, will still be targeting the rest. Iraq will still be hell, even worse than before.

Any "eventual rebuilding" is a couple generations off, not that anyone will fund it. And by then there will be other major problems destabilizing the region.

[Vrede too]

I definitely get the fleeing, I'm just not sure that fleeing so far to North America is best in the long run.

... Any "eventual rebuilding" is a couple generations off, not that anyone will fund it....

That's depressing.

[O Really]

Find a time in history where that region was ever peaceful.
Other than perhaps relatively short periods of time when those we might refer to as "ruthless dictators" ran the place.

[Vrede too]

it wasn't all out war, imperialist or civil, on March 19, 2003.

[rstrong]

I definitely get the fleeing, I'm just not sure that fleeing so far to North America is best in the long run.

Well over million fled to neighboring countries when it was "just" a civil war in Syria. Those refugee camps had really awful conditions. And frankly, the only thing that's stopped *some* of them from becoming a permanent existence for the refugees is ISIS's campaign of terror. (If Al-Assad won the civil war, their return would be a threat to Assad's Alawite minority rule. If Al-Assad lost, the camps' population would be replaced by Alawites who survived the inevitable purge.)

The only viable alternative for them is to flee further, to countries that can absorb them into the general population.

Most will still be in neighboring countries like Turkey and Lebanon. But even Europe is overwhelmed by the numbers arriving. It's only fair that the rest of us share the burden to make it manageable.

[Vrede too]

It's more than sharing the burden, it's our responsibility due to our contribution to the mess. My only question is over long distance resettlement rather than massive support locally.

[rstrong]

Bush 2002 pledge to rebuild Afghanistan: $3.3 billion over 4 years

Bush advice to Congress for 2003 appropriations: $0.00

Good luck with that.

[Vrede too]

Good luck with anything.

While certainly great for the individuals that make it here, we don't seem to be talking about numbers that will make a huge difference in the long run. Even that much is up in the air, the House is voting on a ban tomorrow.

[O Really]

it wasn't all out war, imperialist or civil, on March 19, 2003.

See "Other than perhaps relatively short periods of time when those we might refer to as "ruthless dictators" ran the place", above.

[Vrede too]

I gave up hoping for absolute peace and justice a long time ago. I just hope for more justice and less violence.

[O Really]

I gave up hoping for absolute peace and justice a long time ago. I just hope for more justice and less violence.

Nagonnahappen over there. Not now, not ever. Unless the pissed off Russians nuke the whole region.

[billy.pilgrim]

Find a time in history where that region was ever peaceful.
Other than perhaps relatively short periods of time when those we might refer to as "ruthless dictators" ran the place.

Are you saying it is a DNA or some race based factor that prevents them from living peacefully

or could it possibly have something to do with Europe and great Britain and more recently the US and israel constantly invading or proping with the ruthless dictators

[O Really]

Find a time in history where that region was ever peaceful.
Other than perhaps relatively short periods of time when those we might refer to as "ruthless dictators" ran the place.

Are you saying it is a DNA or some race based factor that prevents them from living peacefully

or could it possibly have something to do with Europe and great Britain and more recently the US and israel constantly invading or proping with the ruthless dictators

I'd say it could be the latter, except it's been going on for long before there was a US or Israel. Real answer - not DNA, but cultural. Mamas don't let their babies grow up to play well with others.

[billy.pilgrim]

Find a time in history where that region was ever peaceful.
Other than perhaps relatively short periods of time when those we might refer to as "ruthless dictators" ran the place.

Are you saying it is a DNA or some race based factor that prevents them from living peacefully

or could it possibly have something to do with Europe and great Britain and more recently the US and israel constantly invading or proping with the ruthless dictators

I'd say it could be the latter, except it's been going on for long before there was a US or Israel. Real answer - not DNA, but cultural. Mamas don't let their babies grow up to play well with others.

sorry, but just not so. Not much different from our own brutal dictators before revolutions and stabs at democracy moved us forward and allowed us to exploit and prop up their brutal dictators.

Imagine if we had supported the democratic Iranian government in the 50s, rather than overthrowing it

Imagine if several popes hadn't invaded in their screwed up crusades

Imagine if the megalomaniac Moses hadn't overrun peaceful towns and villages

They ain't a damn bit different from us

[Vrede too]

Imagine if they didn't have oil, we weren't so gluttonous and that didn't lead us to flood the region with weaponry and to occasionally invade.

[O Really]

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

Imagine pigs can fly. Which they will before the people of that region make peace with each other no matter what the West does or doesn't do.