Syria/Iraq

[Troll Patrol]

Just curious, what did Supsalemgr post on CPF about Obama and Syria before the most recent events?

I think you would find he only supported use of force if it was in the national interest of the USA. His primary criticism of Obama is he overloaded his ass with his mouth and cannot make a decision. This has proven to be a true assessment.

Since when is seeking congressional authorization not making a decision? You prefer autocrats?

Why are you referring to yourself in the 3rd person?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjQwfkQj6e4

[Troll Patrol]

Apparently Supsalemgr lives rent free in Vrede's head.

[Bungalow Bill]

Haven't been over to wingnut central in the last couple of days, but the
last time I was there they had the strange theory that Obama was going
to bomb some of Assad's military assets in order to aid the Muslim Brotherhood
fighters, because Obama is working toward the MB coming over here so he
and they can take over the U.S. and turn it into jihadist nation. Or some
nonsense along those lines. The stupid gets really confusing over there in
a very short time.

Going to Congress, even if it's partly a political move, is a good idea. The
problem is, what if they don't approve the resolution? I believe Obama can
still launch missiles according to the WPA, but it won't look good. That's what
happens when you open your mouth too soon.

That death total for the Korean War looks a little high, unless they're counting
more than just American deaths.

[Bungalow Bill]

Since it was a U.N. operation maybe that's the number of soldiers killed
from the countries fighting under the U.N. aegis. Just a guess.

Yep, if he launches an attack after Congress turns him down, it will look
bad. But if he doesn't, it will look worse. That's what happens when you
paint yourself into a corner. If Congress does turn him down, I think he
will launch an attack anyway.

[Boatrocker]

The War Prayer by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener.

It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety’s sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came – next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams – visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation:

God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!

Then came the “long” prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory.

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher’s side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal,

“Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!”

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside – which the startled minister did – and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:
“I come from the Throne – bearing a message from Almighty God!”
The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention.
“He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import – that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of – except he pause and think. “God’s servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two – one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this – keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor’s crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it. “You have heard your servant’s prayer – the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it – that part which the pastor – and also you in your hearts – fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: ‘Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!’ That is sufficient. The whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory – must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
“O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them – in spirit – we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

(After a pause.)

“Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!”

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

Ya gotta love Mr. Clemens

[neoplacebo]

We should only be involved in Syria in a humanitarian way. Any military action will just piss off more factions than it pleases. Besides, the whole area is already full of folks who hate America, most of them some sort of sales manager. It's a no win situation.

[neoplacebo]

This whole Syria thing with regard to American involvement has become a real soap opera; at the expense of the poor bastards who got gassed. Months ago McCain was hooting for action NOW, in spite of the fact that the conflict was almost two years old at that point....more than enough time for all manner of jihadis and yahoos to come to Syria to join the ones already there (native sales managers). Now, caution rules, the jihadis and yahoos claim victory, a situation now exists in which the end result is that only more sales managers will be created. The former GOP hawks have become cautious, comparisons to Iraq have been raised and discounted....it has everything; for potential sales managers.

[Bungalow Bill]

I was presuming he was talking about military deaths. All deaths would likely have
run into a million at the least.

The House Republicans could really use this as a chance to give Obama the shaft,
not sure if they will or not. Again, if it doesn't pass, I think he'll attack anyway.
The only bright spot is that it will likely be a very limited attack. Just as a practical
matter, I can see why presidents don't like to get permission from Congress.

[O Really]

They don't know who tossed the sarin (or whatever); they don't know who are the "good guys" since there don't appear to be any; they don't have any reasonable expectation of gaining a reliable ally no matter who wins. WTF can they possibly say to justify US involvement?

[O Really]

I wonder - what would be the US reaction to any country speaking publicly about possible direct military action against the US in retribution for something the government did? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be "Opps, so sorry - we'll do something else, just don't send the planes."

[bannination]

This is how serious our politicians are actually taking the thought of war. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/pos ... b0d9d4fe0a

[Wneglia]

Red Line? What Red Line?

[bannination]

Who cares about red lines? I'd rather our leaders be open to changing their minds when they've made a mistake. Ain't no one perfect, and to commit to an action just because it's something you said one time is retarded. It doesn't show you're weak, it shows you're strong.

[Boatrocker]

Who cares about red lines? I'd rather our leaders be open to changing their minds when they've made a mistake. Ain't no one perfect, and to commit to an action just because it's something you said one time is retarded. It doesn't show you're weak, it shows you're strong.

Not to mention swallowing whole a wad of purely fabricated intelligence, from which to base a very bad decision.

[Wneglia]

They don't know who tossed the sarin (or whatever); they don't know who are the "good guys" since there don't appear to be any; they don't have any reasonable expectation of gaining a reliable ally no matter who wins. WTF can they possibly say to justify US involvement?

If this guy would confirm that Assad used the Sarin, I would feel a lot better about our involvement.

[bannination]

I get the same.

[homerfobe]

I'd rather our leaders be open to changing their minds. It doesn't show you're weak, it shows you're strong.

To openly challenge a leader and show the rest of the world you don't give a rats ass about their opinion:
It doesn't show you're weak, it shows you're strong.

Not to mention swallowing whole a wad of purely fabricated intelligence, from which to base a very bad decision.

Where do you get your highly reliable information that the POTUS has received purely fabricated intelligence?

[Boatrocker]

I'd rather our leaders be open to changing their minds. It doesn't show you're weak, it shows you're strong.

To openly challenge a leader and show the rest of the world you don't give a rats ass about their opinion:
It doesn't show you're weak, it shows you're strong.

Not to mention swallowing whole a wad of purely fabricated intelligence, from which to base a very bad decision.

Where do you get your highly reliable information that the POTUS has received purely fabricated intelligence?

It's been done before, by the dumbfuck in chief in 2003, which is what I was referring to. Dumbass.

[homerfobe]

It's been done before, by the dumbfuck in chief in 2003, which is what I was referring to. Dumbass.

Sorry, dumbfuck. Make yourself more clearer next time. Oh wait, I forgot who I was replying to. My bad.

[homerfobe]

To be fair, Boatrocker, I thought you were referring to Syria, too. Though I know the intel is still questionable, I was wondering where you got "purely fabricated intelligence" from.

Thanks. For a moment I thought I was a dumbass,