Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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O Really
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Slaver flag and civil war history from the standpoint of an Aussie...

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboo ... age-165621
They claim the battle flag represents their Southern heritage, as if that heritage comprises an innocent history of mint juleps and church-going. The problem with that claim, as the history of the use of the flag demonstrates, is that the heritage it symbolises is also that of enslavement, inequality, violence and gross injustice.

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Vrede too
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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O Really wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:09 am
Slaver flag and civil war history from the standpoint of an Aussie...

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboo ... age-165621
They claim the battle flag represents their Southern heritage, as if that heritage comprises an innocent history of mint juleps and church-going. The problem with that claim, as the history of the use of the flag demonstrates, is that the heritage it symbolises is also that of enslavement, inequality, violence and gross injustice.
The Confederate Flag Is Pure Racism (Not Southern Heritage)

Wow, that's not the norm for the right-wing, so called "National Interest".
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
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GoCubsGo
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Gaslighting time.

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GoCubsGo
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Arkansas.

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Vrede too
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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GoCubsGo wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:04 am
Arkansas.
Disgusting.

Here are some commonly used terms that actually have racist origins

... Open the kimono ...

Fuzzy wuzzy ...

Plantation (shutter, blinds, style weddings, etc...) ...

Off the reservation ...

Eskimo ...

Peanut gallery ...

Paddy Wagon ...

(sit) Indian style ...

Mumbo jumbo ...
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
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O Really
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Commonly used terms that (may have) racist origins.
Still others, such as “peanut gallery” and “fuzzy wuzzy," remain in wide use despite their racially questionable origins.That's because the definition of these words and phrases have often been lost over time, experts said.
If few or anybody know the original racist definition, then what possible difference does it make now?

From my childhood, many decades ago:
"Fuzzy Wuzzy wuz a bear
Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair
Fuzzy Wuzzy wuzen't very fuzzy, wuz he"

Hard core racist.

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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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O Really wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:23 pm
Commonly used terms that (may have) racist origins.
Still others, such as “peanut gallery” and “fuzzy wuzzy," remain in wide use despite their racially questionable origins.That's because the definition of these words and phrases have often been lost over time, experts said.
If few or anybody know the original racist definition, then what possible difference does it make now?

From my childhood, many decades ago:
"Fuzzy Wuzzy wuz a bear
Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair
Fuzzy Wuzzy wuzen't very fuzzy, wuz he"

Hard core racist.
Yeah, some of this stuff is starting to get out of hand. Almost like how the GOP see bogeymen under every bed and insist they're victims of it. I have no problem with changing the name of schools named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, but all this other shit seems a bridge too far to me.

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Vrede too
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

Unread post by Vrede too »

If some do know the origins and find them hurtful, what's the harm in choosing alternate phrasing?

Otoh, I'm okay with calling a Karen a 'fussy wussy'. :wave:

"a bridge too far" is offensive to the casualties and survivors (and their families) of 1944's Operation Market Garden. ;)
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Vrede too wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:56 pm
If some do know the origins and find them hurtful, what's the harm in choosing alternate phrasing?

Otoh, I'm okay with calling a Karen a 'fussy wussy'. :wave:

"a bridge too far" is offensive to the casualties and survivors (and their families) of 1944's Operation Market Garden. ;)
While there may be heartfelt memories when hearing the term a bridge too far, you you really think that anyone finds the term to be offensive?

As for Fuzzy, I wonder if anyone thinks this:
The term "Fuzzy Wuzzy" was originally used by British troops to describe the Beja warriors who supported the Mahdi in the Mahdist War of the late 19th century. The term was used due to the hairstyle of the troops and the bear term was added as a pun on the Beja tribe's name. This nickname was then used in a poem created by Rudyard Kipling as a sign of respect and admiration for the Beja troops who fought against the British and became a facet of popular culture from that time until the present day.
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Vrede too wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:38 am
GoCubsGo wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:04 am
Arkansas.
Disgusting.

Here are some commonly used terms that actually have racist origins

... Open the kimono ...

Fuzzy wuzzy ...

Plantation (shutter, blinds, style weddings, etc...) ...

Off the reservation ...

Eskimo ...

Peanut gallery ...

Paddy Wagon ...

(sit) Indian style ...

Mumbo jumbo ...
Plantation - disgusting, really? What do you have against large farms?

Peanut gallery?

Paddy wagon?
1/20/21 - the end of an error

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Vrede too
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

Unread post by Vrede too »

I merely posted the article. You can reject its assertions and modern implications if you choose. I'm no historian, grammarian nor minority (including Irish heritage).
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:35 pm
While there may be heartfelt memories when hearing the term a bridge too far, you you really think that anyone finds the term to be offensive?

As for Fuzzy, I wonder if anyone thinks this:
The term "Fuzzy Wuzzy" was originally used by British troops to describe the Beja warriors who supported the Mahdi in the Mahdist War of the late 19th century. The term was used due to the hairstyle of the troops and the bear term was added as a pun on the Beja tribe's name. This nickname was then used in a poem created by Rudyard Kipling as a sign of respect and admiration for the Beja troops who fought against the British and became a facet of popular culture from that time until the present day.
My mention of Operation Market Garden is a joke, hence the " ;) ". I doubt that neoplacebo is offended.

The article says:
Fuzzy wuzzy

This is a late 1800’s term used by British colonial soldiers to refer to the members of an East African tribe. It became a derogatory way to refer to natural hair texture of non-white people throughout Africa, Cedric Burrows, author of "Rhetorical Crossover: The Black Rhetorical Presence in White Culture" told ABC News....
Whatever the Beja and Mahdi called the British troops and other Whites does not persist.

Fwiw, the Mahdist War lasted eighteen years, resulted in massive African casualties vs minimal British ones, and ended with UK domination of Sudan for over half a century.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Vrede too wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:32 pm
I merely posted the article. You can reject its assertions and modern implications if you choose. I'm no historian, grammarian nor minority (including Irish heritage).
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:35 pm
While there may be heartfelt memories when hearing the term a bridge too far, you you really think that anyone finds the term to be offensive?

As for Fuzzy, I wonder if anyone thinks this:
The term "Fuzzy Wuzzy" was originally used by British troops to describe the Beja warriors who supported the Mahdi in the Mahdist War of the late 19th century. The term was used due to the hairstyle of the troops and the bear term was added as a pun on the Beja tribe's name. This nickname was then used in a poem created by Rudyard Kipling as a sign of respect and admiration for the Beja troops who fought against the British and became a facet of popular culture from that time until the present day.
My mention of Operation Market Garden is a joke, hence the " ;) ". I doubt that neoplacebo is offended.

The article says:
Fuzzy wuzzy

This is a late 1800’s term used by British colonial soldiers to refer to the members of an East African tribe. It became a derogatory way to refer to natural hair texture of non-white people throughout Africa, Cedric Burrows, author of "Rhetorical Crossover: The Black Rhetorical Presence in White Culture" told ABC News....
Whatever the Beja and Mahdi called the British troops and other Whites does not persist.

Fwiw, the Mahdist War lasted eighteen years, resulted in massive African casualties vs minimal British ones, and ended with UK domination of Sudan for over half a century.
Originally started as derogatory, but I'm betting the Kipling sign of respect and the silly children's rhythm are the known definitions.
Lots of insults get turned around and worn boldly.

This nickname was then used in a poem created by Rudyard Kipling as a sign of respect and admiration for the Beja troops who fought against the British and became a facet of popular culture from that time until the present day.


Plantation - disgusting, really? What do you have against large farms?

Peanut gallery?

Paddy wagon?
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Vrede too
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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:roll: Again, I'm not going to pretend to be able to make the cases better than the experts cited in the article do. If you disagree with them, fine by me. For me, it's only about my language choices. I'm not going to grief others over these phrases.
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O Really
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Some of the terms in this article, as well as in other examples and usage may very well have racist implications that are not culturally appropriate. But I think nit-picking (opps) every little possible affront detracts from things that matter. Like protesting Whack9's mouse hunt detracts from the protest about elephant poaching.

Besides, over time, terms and their meanings change. Like "gay," f'rinstance. And sometimes people use an expression without a clue as to what it originally meant. Like "by and large."
By and large is originally a sailing term meaning "alternately close-hauled and not close-hauled." A ship that is sailing "close-hauled" is sailing as directly into the wind as possible (typically within about 45 degrees of the wind). The "by" part of the phrase means "close-hauled." (This "by" also appears in the term full and by, meaning "sailing with all sails full and close to the wind as possible.") "Large," by contrast, refers to a point of sail in which the wind is hitting the boat "abaft the beam," or behind the boat's widest point. A 1669 example of a variant spelling of "by and large" gives us a sense of the range implied: "Thus you see the ship handled in fair weather and foul, by and learge" (S. Sturmy, Mariners Magazine). The suggestion of a wide range carries over into the term's "in general" sense.
And if you get rid of "paddy wagon" you have to get rid of "Fighting Irish."

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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

Unread post by billy.pilgrim »

The author appears to have proved himself wrong about the origins of peanut gallery.

Words are not prescriptive to language. definitions change over time and location. It wasn't many years ago that happy children were called gay and queer was an insult. One changed over time and the other was cooped by the people the word had been used to insult.

Boomers were proud of the name 50 years ago, but now it's used to refer to someone as being behind.

Fuzzy wuzzy is a silly rhythm you teach kids. When they get older and ask for meaning, show them Kipling's people about the bravery of the Beja troops against the British forces.

We give words their meaning. Wooly Bully
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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Vrede too wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:32 pm
I merely posted the article. You can reject its assertions and modern implications if you choose. I'm no historian, grammarian nor minority (including Irish heritage).
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:35 pm
While there may be heartfelt memories when hearing the term a bridge too far, you you really think that anyone finds the term to be offensive?

As for Fuzzy, I wonder if anyone thinks this:
The term "Fuzzy Wuzzy" was originally used by British troops to describe the Beja warriors who supported the Mahdi in the Mahdist War of the late 19th century. The term was used due to the hairstyle of the troops and the bear term was added as a pun on the Beja tribe's name. This nickname was then used in a poem created by Rudyard Kipling as a sign of respect and admiration for the Beja troops who fought against the British and became a facet of popular culture from that time until the present day.
My mention of Operation Market Garden is a joke, hence the " ;) ". I doubt that neoplacebo is offended.

The article says:
Fuzzy wuzzy

This is a late 1800’s term used by British colonial soldiers to refer to the members of an East African tribe. It became a derogatory way to refer to natural hair texture of non-white people throughout Africa, Cedric Burrows, author of "Rhetorical Crossover: The Black Rhetorical Presence in White Culture" told ABC News....
Whatever the Beja and Mahdi called the British troops and other Whites does not persist.

Fwiw, the Mahdist War lasted eighteen years, resulted in massive African casualties vs minimal British ones, and ended with UK domination of Sudan for over half a century.
Nah, I recognized your comment as a humorous one. No offense taken here. Hell, I'm just saying that if we try to change everything that MAY have some sort of vestigal tie to a racist attitude from the past, we'll have to change a lot of shit.....everything from buy bull verses to Uncle Ben's rice. They've already addressed Uncle Ben I believe but I somehow doubt they're going to change the buy bull.

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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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neoplacebo wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:57 am
Nah, I recognized your comment as a humorous one. No offense taken here. Hell, I'm just saying that if we try to change everything that MAY have some sort of vestigal tie to a racist attitude from the past, we'll have to change a lot of shit.....everything from buy bull verses to Uncle Ben's rice. They've already addressed Uncle Ben I believe but I somehow doubt they're going to change the buy bull.
They've constantly changed the buy bull - both new translations and language modernization. Then, interpretations of it routinely shift to reflect modern aspirations and prejudices.

Society and its lexicon evolve. Phrases with sketchy origins can fall out of use just as easily as they were unwittingly adopted. For example, I almost never hear or see "paddy wagon" anymore other than in old movies. Remember this death that led to so much rioting?

Freddie Grey Arrest: Baltimore Van Ride at Center of Mystery
The Baltimore police are investigating how and when Grey injured his spine.


The reference was almost always to "police van" as in this article, or to 'prisoner transport van/bus' elsewhere.

I'll bet that "peanut gallery" dies out, too, once all of the Howdy Doody viewers are gone.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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I thought that peanut gallery was pre-Howdy, like way before. I've always understood it to mean unwelcome noise, or children complaining about a decision that a parent or teacher made.

The balcony was built for blacks. I would imagine that unwanted noise from there would not have been tolerated.
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Re: Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

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billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:44 am
I thought that peanut gallery was pre-Howdy, like way before. I've always understood it to mean unwelcome noise, or children complaining about a decision that a parent or teacher made.

The balcony was built for blacks. I would imagine that unwanted noise from there would not have been tolerated.
I always thought "peanut gallery" just referred to the cheap seats, which would typically be occupied by "cheap" or less than "respectable" people. Don't know why I thought this, but I did.

As for the blacks in the balcony, when I was a kid growing up here in TN there were two movie theaters downtown; the State and the Strand. One had a separate outside stairway to the balcony for blacks; the other had an inside staircase to the balcony. I do not remember ever seeing a black person at the concession stand getting popcorn or drinks and do not know if they had a separate facility for this in the balcony or not. I do remember being curious about the balcony and wishing I could go sit there.

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