Gun Legislation

[neoplacebo]

How you "translate" is up to you. But nobody has said there is no right to self defense. That's not part of the immediate issue. Law enforcement, including police officers and prosecutors, as well as bar owners have listed numerous reasons why passing such a law is not a good thing. I do in fact agree with them. What's more, nobody has as far as I've seen offered any justification why a long-standing and almost universal law prohibiting firearms in bars should be changed.

Yes, we know you "agree" with them. Yet, when offered repeated chances you can not give a single reason why you "agree" with them. So, again, I submit that you are simply going with the "they disagree with it, so I am too" attitude. In other words, a blind sheeple incapable of individual thought.

Damn, you're dense. How can you be trusted with a CCP? The "reasons" this is a stupid idea to most rational people is just that; it's stupid. Not to mention law enforcement and most bar owners have spoken out against it. Those are what are called "reasons." I bet you still don't get it, though.

[Boatrocker]

My guess is that the average bar owner is way smarter than the current crop of NC legislators, and will post a "No Weapons" sign and enforce it.

Just 20 minutes ago I flushed away a bucketful of that which is "way smarter than the current crop of NC legislators."

[O Really]

Well, they're at least smart enough not to pass a law allowing firearms in legislative chambers or courtrooms. Wonder why that is.

[O Really]

...And BTW, the "training" required for a CCP can hardly be called "extensive". It borders on "pretend."

As are the background checks given the lapses in mental health reporting, as is well known to everyone but Roland Deschain.

From what we've all seen in comparing the intelligence, accuracy and logic of their posts it makes sense that what O Really finds to be "pretend" would be so difficult as to be "extensive" to Roland Deschain.

Roland's OK. He's just got a vivid imagination.

[O Really]

...And BTW, the "training" required for a CCP can hardly be called "extensive". It borders on "pretend."

As are the background checks given the lapses in mental health reporting, as is well known to everyone but Roland Deschain.

From what we've all seen in comparing the intelligence, accuracy and logic of their posts it makes sense that what O Really finds to be "pretend" would be so difficult as to be "extensive" to Roland Deschain.

According to the owner of Concealed Handgun Carry Inc. around Wilson, NC, which does a lot of training not just concealed permit...

"The NC Concealed Handgun Carry Permit Course is not a difficult course to complete. The state designed this course for the average person, not just for those with lots of experience. The range qualification shooting is fired from a distance of 3, 5 and 7 yards. With our instructions and guidance, shooters with very limited or no experience do very well. We will return one hundred percent of your money if you fail the range qualification or we will work with you until you pass."

"To increase your confidence and ability to shoot accurately during an extremely stressful real life shooting situation, I highly recommend that a shooter with little or no experience with a handgun take additional training in addition to your Concealed Handgun Carry Permit course."

Chris has over 40 years in law enforcement and 8 as an instructor in his company. He says...

"The criteria to be an instructor for the North Carolina Concealed Handgun Class is not very stringent. No law enforcement experience is required. You only need a NRA Basic Pistol Instructors Certification and a four hour class presented by the NC Dept. of Justice. There are many new instructors teaching this class and many are just minimally qualified."

The proficiency requirement in NC is to hit the target 21 out of 30 shots, shooting from 3, 5, and 7 yards. Yeppers, "extensive" training is required.

Carolina's First Defense, another training company, agrees that "The North Carolina Concealed Handgun Carry Permit Class is not difficult to complete." What's more, they make the class an "event" with raffles and prizes.

"Carolinas First Defense offers a unique an affordable CCW class that is not only a class, but an experience! Not only will you walk away with the knowledge, techniques, and skills it takes to apply for your Concealed Carry Permit, but you will also have the chance to win prizes throughout our class as well as enjoyed a catered lunch from a Kings Mountain restaurant. Throughout the class, we like to make it an enjoyable experience for all with group discussions, class volunteers, as well as raffles which gives those who attend the chance to win $25 Gas Gift Cards, $25 Retail Gift Cards, Carolinas First Defense T-shirts, gift cards to various local restaurants and businesses, as well as the Grand Prize which is a 3-day, 2 night vacation to over 36 select destinations domestic as well as international."

[neoplacebo]

Are you able to carry your concealed weapon at all of those 36 stellar destinations? If not, why not?

[O Really]

Are you able to carry your concealed weapon at all of those 36 stellar destinations? If not, why not?

[Roland Deschain]

The proficiency requirement in NC is to hit the target 21 out of 30 shots, shooting from 3, 5, and 7 yards.

Exactly. We are talking about shooting for self defense are we not? I think you would have a hard time explaining to the judge why you had to shoot the guy from 50 yards in "self defense", In addition the recognized "combat distance" for handguns is only 7 yards. You folks will try to find anything in order to attempt to prove your points but all it does it make you look foolish and uneducated on the subject. However,in my CCP class we had to fire 50 rounds and included distances of 15 and 25 yards in order to show a more advanced proficiency.

[Roland Deschain]

"50 rounds" (possible in a few minutes) with zero requirement to demonstrate continuing competency is "extensive training" yet O Really is "foolish and uneducated".

Thanks for chiming in vrede and proving yourself an uneducated buffoon on the subject. Yes it was 50 rounds and yes anyone can fire 50 rounds in a few minutes. However, if you had half an ounce of knowledge on the process you would have not made your idiotic statement. You see, our 50 rounds were broken down into sets, such as "fire three rounds in five seconds" or "four rounds in six seconds", there were some additional issues thrown in but it was hardly walk up and shoot 50 rounds and walk away. Like I said....thanks for proving yourself an uneducated dumbass who thinks they know everything...again!!!

[Ombudsman]

The proficiency requirement in NC is to hit the target 21 out of 30 shots, shooting from 3, 5, and 7 yards.

Exactly. We are talking about shooting for self defense are we not? I think you would have a hard time explaining to the judge why you had to shoot the guy from 50 yards in "self defense", In addition the recognized "combat distance" for handguns is only 7 yards. You folks will try to find anything in order to attempt to prove your points but all it does it make you look foolish and uneducated on the subject. However,in my CCP class we had to fire 50 rounds and included distances of 15 and 25 yards in order to show a more advanced proficiency.

You seem to be missing the point. The idea that CCP holders are more advanced, more responsible gun owners is shown not to be true by the link O Really provided. It requires very little training or proficiency to get one. And if you're lucky, you might end up getting one from a guy like this.

[Roland Deschain]

Roland Deschain, you "uneducated buffoon", I posted "possible in a few minutes", not that it was done in a few minutes. Once again you prove what an "idiotic", "uneducated dumbass" you are about even the most basic English.

And, you ducked the point, as you always do. "50 rounds" over whatever period of time with zero requirement to demonstrate continuing competency is not "extensive training" by any definition. Run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

Who said anything about "zero requirement to demonstrate continuing comptency"??? Again you prove your ignorance of the process, as there is a minimum score that must be fired and a renewal procedure that requires shooting.

[Roland Deschain]

Roland Deschain, you "uneducated buffoon", I posted "possible in a few minutes", not that it was done in a few minutes. Once again you prove what an "idiotic", "uneducated dumbass" you are about even the most basic English. ...

Comprehension flub ducked, as usual.

Who said anything about "zero requirement to demonstrate continuing comptency"??? Again you prove your ignorance of the process, as there is a minimum score that must be fired and a renewal procedure that requires shooting.

My bad, sort of. After the "extensive training" of "50 rounds" , a CCP is good for 5 years. Then, you have to apply, pay a fee, get an inadequate background check and:

14-415.16. Renewal of permit.

...the sheriff may waive the requirement of taking another firearms safety and training course...

Once again, Roland Deschain proves that he doesn't know what he's talking about even when it comes to guns. Then, there's Ombudsman's link about what some CWP instructors really do.

In contrast, I have to renew CPR and other certifications every 2 years, there is no waiving of the requirement that I demonstrate proficiency, the demonstrations alone take longer than it does to fire "50 rounds", and I have to complete other continuing education to maintain licensure.

Once again, Roland Deschain ducked the point, as he always does. "50 rounds" over whatever period of time is not "extensive training" by any definition. Run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

Poor vrede...foot stuck in mouth again and immediately the defamation, insults, and spin begins. A NC drivers license is valid for 8 years if issued between the ages of 18 and 65. I guess in vrede-world there are a LOT of incompetent drivers. In addition "the sheriff may waive the requirement of taking another firearms safety and training course". However, and once again proving vrede's ignorance, that waiver only occurs if the applicant can prove repeated training and shooting during the period the permit was valid for. This usually done through records kept at gun ranges etc. Also proving vrede's ignorance is the statement that demonstrating CPR takes longer than it does to fire the 50 round course. The entire 50 round course takes about 30 to 40 minutes to fire. I hate to think it takes that long to demonstrate CPR proficiency...unless of course you are doing the entire, new, "pit crew" style cardiac arrest protocol

[O Really]

The proficiency requirement in NC is to hit the target 21 out of 30 shots, shooting from 3, 5, and 7 yards.

Exactly. We are talking about shooting for self defense are we not? I think you would have a hard time explaining to the judge why you had to shoot the guy from 50 yards in "self defense", In addition the recognized "combat distance" for handguns is only 7 yards. You folks will try to find anything in order to attempt to prove your points but all it does it make you look foolish and uneducated on the subject. However,in my CCP class we had to fire 50 rounds and included distances of 15 and 25 yards in order to show a more advanced proficiency.

Not exactly. Specifically I was addressing and disagreeing with your contention that concealed weapon permit holders should be allowed to go armed into bars because, in part, they are "good guys" and have "extensive" training. I don't doubt that you, like me, has much more training than the law requires. But my point is that you don't have to know much, do much, or be very proficient to get a carry permit. I understand the reason for the close targets. But the state requirement is 21 shots to hit the target out of 30, and that out of a total of 50 shots to qualify for the permit. I suspect you could put more than 21 shots into the target from 3, 7, and 10 yards out with your eyes closed and using somebody else's weapon. Having a concealed carry permit tells us nothing - nothing - about actual proficiency.

[Roland Deschain]

The proficiency requirement in NC is to hit the target 21 out of 30 shots, shooting from 3, 5, and 7 yards.

Exactly. We are talking about shooting for self defense are we not? I think you would have a hard time explaining to the judge why you had to shoot the guy from 50 yards in "self defense", In addition the recognized "combat distance" for handguns is only 7 yards. You folks will try to find anything in order to attempt to prove your points but all it does it make you look foolish and uneducated on the subject. However,in my CCP class we had to fire 50 rounds and included distances of 15 and 25 yards in order to show a more advanced proficiency.

Not exactly. Specifically I was addressing and disagreeing with your contention that concealed weapon permit holders should be allowed to go armed into bars because, in part, they are "good guys" and have "extensive" training. I don't doubt that you, like me, has much more training than the law requires. But my point is that you don't have to know much, do much, or be very proficient to get a carry permit. I understand the reason for the close targets. But the state requirement is 21 shots to hit the target out of 30, and that out of a total of 50 shots to qualify for the permit. I suspect you could put more than 21 shots into the target from 3, 7, and 10 yards out with your eyes closed and using somebody else's weapon. Having a concealed carry permit tells us nothing - nothing - about actual proficiency.

Do you even know what "the target" is? You would be quite surprised at the number of people who attempt ot obtain permits that can not hit the broadside of a barn with them inside and the door closed. It is not as easy as you might think even at close range. It requires proficiency...no matter how you want to spin it. Since you brought it up I fired 50 rounds into one rough hole approximately the size of a quarter for my qualification.

[Roland Deschain]

Much of the worst of it is directed at veteran and fellow owner, O Really. Once again, by proving himself to be an armed wuss that can dish it out but turns into a quivering, foot-stomping child when it comes back at him, Roland Deschain makes a better case for stricter gun law than the rest of us could ever hope to.

Poor Roland Deschain, creates illogical comparisons and makes stuff up out of thin air when he screws up, again.

Almost all drivers display continuing competence by, you know, driving and not crashing or getting ticketed. That said, I'd be thrilled if the requirements on guns and gun owners were as stringent as they are on cars and drivers and Roland Deschain would shriek like a 4-year old if anyone proposed it. Oopsie, he didn't think through his own argument again. Mmmm, shoe leather.

There is nothing in the law, nothing, about "that waiver only occurs if the applicant can prove repeated training and shooting during the period the permit was valid for," as I linked. And, everyone but Roland Deschain is well aware of the <ahem> "competence and diligence" of the sheriffs NC elects. Mmmm, Roland Deschain flosses with shoelaces.

CPR recert for healthcare providers requires, requires study, written testing, and proficiency demonstration in chest compressions, BVM, AED, and Heimlich for the full range of neonates to adults no matter how often the provider uses the same skills at work. That's all far more than "30 to 40 minutes", it's every two years, and there's no possibility of waiver from some fat and lazy good old boy sheriff, none. And, CPR was just one of the requirements I listed but, as usual, Roland Deschain ran away from the rest. Having shown his utter ignorance about actual gun law, Roland Deschain insists on proving he's just as ignorant about healthcare. Mmmm, stinky socks.

Then, Roland Deschain pretends that Ombudsman's link about what some CWP instructors really do hasn't been posted, ducked his comprehension flub, and continues his cowardly diversion from the original point - "50 rounds" over whatever period of time is not "extensive training" by any definition. Mmmm, toe jam for dessert. Run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

You have proven yourself a blathering idiot on the subject so your attempt to save face through additional insult is duly noted....you may go now.

[Ombudsman]

You have proven yourself a blathering idiot on the subject so your attempt to save face through additional insult is duly noted....you may go now.

Is there a difference between a blithering idiot and a blathering idiot?

[Roland Deschain]

Poor Roland Deschain, all he's got is a childish response to the detailed proof of his blathering idiocy on multiple subjects, including gun law.

Another attempt to save face through insult. Notice the complete avoidance of the actual subject matter. You're no daisy vrede.

[O Really]

Do you even know what "the target" is? You would be quite surprised at the number of people who attempt ot obtain permits that can not hit the broadside of a barn with them inside and the door closed. It is not as easy as you might think even at close range. It requires proficiency...no matter how you want to spin it. Since you brought it up I fired 50 rounds into one rough hole approximately the size of a quarter for my qualification.

Was the topic ever what training you personally have or how proficient or skillful you are? No. The topic is what is required by the state to get a permit. I say it's easy to qualify, and at least two people who make their living as instructors agree with me and say so on their websites. My wife had never fired a handgun until she went to concealed carry class. She left a few hours later with her certificate. She's had a lot more training since then, of course, but you'd surely agree that for a lot of people, that one course is all they take.

[Roland Deschain]

Was the topic ever what training you personally have or how proficient or skillful you are? No. The topic is what is required by the state to get a permit. I say it's easy to qualify, and at least two people who make their living as instructors agree with me and say so on their websites. My wife had never fired a handgun until she went to concealed carry class. She left a few hours later with her certificate. She's had a lot more training since then, of course, but you'd surely agree that for a lot of people, that one course is all they take.

Of course I would agree that "one course" is all they take. It is the only course, other than hunter's safety that I have ever taken. It does not change the fact that one must be proficient in a handgun's use in order to pass. There were several in my class that failed and walked out without a certificate. I'd also ask, based on this conversation, just what is required? My class was two days and 50 rounds, while others are saying a few hours and 30 rounds. Could it be that there is a minimum set of requirements that less scrupulous instructors only strive to meet in order to get another group, while more reputable instructors are running classes that insure folks are proficient before he signs his name saying they are? Either way, the people with CCP's are still the good guys, have proven their proficiency, and I fully support those people having the right to carry their gun wherever they choose.

[O Really]

Was the topic ever what training you personally have or how proficient or skillful you are? No. The topic is what is required by the state to get a permit. I say it's easy to qualify, and at least two people who make their living as instructors agree with me and say so on their websites. My wife had never fired a handgun until she went to concealed carry class. She left a few hours later with her certificate. She's had a lot more training since then, of course, but you'd surely agree that for a lot of people, that one course is all they take.

Of course I would agree that "one course" is all they take. It is the only course, other than hunter's safety that I have ever taken. It does not change the fact that one must be proficient in a handgun's use in order to pass. There were several in my class that failed and walked out without a certificate. I'd also ask, based on this conversation, just what is required? My class was two days and 50 rounds, while others are saying a few hours and 30 rounds. Could it be that there is a minimum set of requirements that less scrupulous instructors only strive to meet in order to get another group, while more reputable instructors are running classes that insure folks are proficient before he signs his name saying they are? Either way, the people with CCP's are still the good guys, have proven their proficiency, and I fully support those people having the right to carry their gun wherever they choose.

They're not necessarily unscrupulous just because the do exactly what the law requires. The class has to be conducted by a certified instructor (not hard to get that designation - see Ombud's post) and must be 8 hours, with 50 rounds live fire, hitting 21 out of 30. If an instructor does that, s/he's done what is required. One of the websites I referenced basically guaranteed everyone will pass. The written test required (and no, I don't know what your particular instructor had) is easier than the drivers' license test. It's pretty easy to find the specific requirements in any state - and none of them require anything that would reasonably be considered "proficient." One cannot become "proficient" in 50 rounds, no matter how quickly you learn.