Corporal Punishment

[Mr.B]

I know of no kids who grew up to be mentally unstable because they got whippings.

Look in the mirror. Besides, the point made by all relevant science is about the overall population effect, not that it applies to every individual.
I don't have to look in a mirror...I can easily look at these forum pages and pretty well guess who didn't get a whipping when they were growing up. Your "all relevant science" is about as as claiming those with anti-"gay" sentiments means they are "gay". Dang, you're stupid.

OTOH, I'm certain there's a lot more kids who grew up to be jerks because of a lack of discipline.
No one suggested eliminating discipline, just that beating kids, on average, is counter-productive. Dang, you're stupid.
"On average"....good dodge.

[Mr.B]

"No one suggested eliminating discipline...."

Curious...give us your definition of discipline.

No need, O Really has gone into it in detail and I've posted:

Corporal punishment is violence. Like it or not, only an illiterate would claim otherwise. My opinion is irrelevant, all the relevant experts offer successful alternatives to the child beating that you adore and refuse to admit makes for worse kids and adults on average.

The beatings you got made you a coward.

Oh gee....now I'm a coward. Couldn't come up with one of your cutesy quips to suit the moment?

Nice attempt at a dodge though....now, give us your definition of discipline; not O really's "detail"...your definition in detail.

[Mr.B]

I've asked you twice now, and you've "ran shrieking away* " from my question...

"...now, give us your definition of discipline; not O Really's "detail"...your definition in detail."

(*© 2014 Vrede's Cutesy Quips vol.10)

[Mr.B]

"As O Really says, being a good example is that best way to instill values."
I'm not interested in what O Really says. Let's rephrase the question so you'll not be so confused...Let's say you have three kids at home. How would you, you know, you, as a parent?.... How would you discipline your kids? A "good example" at or of what? How is that discipline, or let's say punishment?


Science proves that teaching kids that using violence against the weak is appropriate is among the worst of examples to set.
Science, scmience; I'm not interested in your scientific relevancy....stop running away. Again, let's say you have three kids at home. How would you, you know, you, as a parent?.... How would you discipline your kids?

[Mr.B]

I've asked you twice now, and you've "ran shrieking away* " from my question...

No, I didn't, liar.
Yes you did, you liar.

My opinion is that kids are individuals and respond to different types of creative discipline.
"Creative discipline"? Like cutting out paper dolls? Stacking Lego blocks? No TV or video games for 30 minutes? Maybe take away their smartphone?

Your opinion is that all kids are benefited by being beaten.
Stupid dodging and you know it.

As O Really says, being a good example is that best way to instill values.
That's all well and good, provided the parent has "values" and knows how to be a "good example".

Science proves that teaching kids that using violence against the weak is appropriate is among the worst of examples to set.
So what does your science "prove" about kids who don't receive any physical or oral discipline at home vs. those who receives the occasional spanking? You're so all knowing when it comes to parenting...what can you teach...or prove? Are you one of those little sheep that blindly believes that because someone with a bunch of abbreviated letters after their name wrote it, it's the absolute gospel truth that's not to be refuted? Internet much?

So many of these discussions are about Vrede spitting out the same to garner attention.

[Mr.B]

I've asked you twice now, and you've "ran shrieking away* " from my question...

No, I didn't, liar.

My opinion is that kids are individuals and respond to different types of creative discipline. Your opinion is that all kids are benefited by being beaten.

So many of these discussions are about Mr.B prolonging a losing argument with the English language.

... Science, scmience ...

So many of these discussions are about Mr.B rejecting truth because the personal responsibility to admit he was wrong was never beaten into him.

Run Vrede, Run shrieking away! ©
All you have to say is "I'm not a parent and I have no clue how to raise children. I'm just spouting pure "

[O Really]

OK, I'll give you some personal life examples of life without beatings. As I have mentioned in the past, my mum was a Brit. She never lost her proper English accent even after 60 years in the US, and I suspect never tried. "Americans do so butcher the language, you know." She could give you "the look" and, using somebody other miscreant as an example, say, "only those of coarse breeding would run shrieking up the market aisle" and you knew that wasn't something you were going to get caught doing. She"said "we don't do (whatever) in our family." She said "I would be so disappointed and hurt if you (did whatever)" She said, "an educated person understands the value of proper manners." So you knew elbows don't go on the table, soup is not slurped, and you don't interrupt while somebody else is speaking. And my parents never really treated me like a child. I was treated with respect and dignity and expected to return the behaviour. Sometimes I did something or other and was asked what I would consider a reasonable penalty (or consequence) for my deed. I never picked a beating, but probably I always picked something worse than they would have themselves. As I got older, I got a good grip on what things were important to them, and how doing (or not doing) those things could affect my life. Turns out, if I got excellent grades and didn't get into any significant trouble, I got nice cars and clothes, a gas card, spending money, and could do most anything I wanted. Fail on either of those and my life turned to (teenage version) Hell. I didn't always do exactly as my parents would like, and didn't always respond well to what I saw as oppression in some areas. At some point during a somewhat "wild child" period, somebody asked my dad if he was surprised about what I was like Pop said, "Well, you can't raise your kid to be independent and then be pissed off if he doesn't turn out just like you." He continued, "(O Really) will be fine. He's got principles and he's got a foundation to build his own life." And as I've gotten older, I've been surprised at how much smarter my Pop got than he was when I was when I was a kid. They knew how to "discipline" me without beatings. My Pop was one of a litter in the Depression and did get beat. All his life you could see the effect of that, like because he preferred plastic glasses to glass because he was afraid he might drop the glass, and had been beaten for it. There apparently was a lot he got beaten for. He decided before I was born that he would never beat his child if he had one. My Mum was never beaten as a child, and found that more appropriate for the "common street people."

So yeah, I know that most "spankings" don't cause serious injury, and they don't automatically turn a kid into a psycho. But just because beatings used to be a common "part of growing up" doesn't make them any more right than the fact that working in a field or factory at age 10 used to be a "part of growing up."

[O Really]

BTW, for kids as well as adults, reward is better than punishment. A parent needs to have a good understanding of Vroom's motivation theory. What is required to get somebody to do what you want? (1) has to believe s/he can do it; (2) has to believe s/he'll get a reward; (3) has to want the reward.
"Reward" can be anything the person wants - doesn't have to be tangible. Can be even just getting the parent to smile or approve of them. But without that 3-legged stool of motivation, no amount of beating is going to work. Punishment achieves performance only up to the point necessary to avoid the punishment.

[O Really]

Even taking "punishment" as it's own category, there are many more ways to punish other than beating. Taking away something the child values, making them miss something important to them, curtailing valued privileges, requiring extra work, yada. Hell, a beating may be violent and psychologically damaging, but probably most kids would take one instead of having to stay home and miss a (game, party, whatever) where all their friends will be. Or giving up their mobile.

[Mr.B]

I have not said one way or the other because it's NOYFB. It's pitiful how you always resort to fantasizing about me when you're floundering.
That silly whine again? Can't you think of anything else other than other people fantasizing over you? Get a life, or a girlfriend, whichever is the most important..

OK...by your nasty reply, I'm assuming you have kids and are divorced. Obviously, you knew or know nothing about raising kids; and here you are spewing your all-knowing all over these pages as if you are the sole expert on child rearing....you're nothing more than a pathetic loser...loser.

Either way a wise parent chooses proved science over her/his counter-productive desire to beat kids.
"Proved science"...what a laugh. Over half of those educated ding-a-lings out there that post or write their have no inkling on how to raise kids. "There's a sucker born every minute"....They'll write the book, you buy it and believe it.

When I was working, I discovered that the people who wrote the technical manuals, complete with schematics, that we had as job aids, were clueless about how to actually repair the product. Don't get me wrong, they were educated individuals that could draw out schematics and diagrams with use instructions that would make Einstein proud, but when it came to application, they were clueless.

What I'm saying is someone can write all the believable jargon they want...not having the hands on skills, or knowing how to apply them, ain't worth a fart in a whirlwind.

[O Really]

As O Really says, being a good example is that best way to instill values.
That's all well and good, provided the parent has "values" and knows how to be a "good example".

.

Trampling on your own logic, Mr.B? So if the parent has no "values" and doesn't know how to be a "good example," then the beatings will work anyway?

[Mr.B]

"OK, I'll give you some personal life examples of life...."

Your mother sounds like a wise woman, if not somewhat snooty who looked down her nose at others, although instilling good manners in her kids.

As I stated earlier, discipline doesn't always have to be physical, re her teaching you manners; for instance "So you knew elbows don't go on the table, soup is not slurped, and you don't interrupt while somebody else is speaking"...to name a few.

I mentioned the conversation interrupters earlier, so let's go into a restaurant. Were you allowed to wear a hat/cap at the table? or even in the house? Were you allowed to belch/fart or pick your teeth at the table? Were you allowed to loudly purge your nostrils or hawk up a wad at the table? Were you allowed to use the restaurant's cloth napkins to blow your nose on? Were you allowed to pick your nose or scratch your head/hind end at the table? Were you allowed to lay your finger aside your nose and blow a wad all over the sidewalk just outside the door? When you were going out the door, did you hold it open for the next person going out or coming in?

These are some of the things we see every time we go out; that's some of the things I'm talking about when it comes to discipline in the home; and the offenders are not always your shoppers at WalMart. Most of them are well-dressed, neat-looking and drive newer model cars. Had any of us kids done any of those things, we weren't told to go sit in the corner...we would have had to stand if we went. A whipping was swift and over with, and you knew why you got it.

We never got a spanking/whipping unless we earned it.

[Mr.B]

As O Really says, being a good example is that best way to instill values.
That's all well and good, provided the parent has "values" and knows how to be a "good example".

.

Trampling on your own logic, Mr.B? So if the parent has no "values" and doesn't know how to be a "good example," then the beatings will work anyway?

Good grief.....

[O Really]

I mentioned the conversation interrupters earlier, so let's go into a restaurant. Were you allowed to wear a hat/cap at the table? or even in the house? Were you allowed to belch/fart or pick your teeth at the table? Were you allowed to loudly purge your nostrils or hawk up a wad at the table? Were you allowed to use the restaurant's cloth napkins to blow your nose on? Were you allowed to pick your nose or scratch your head/hind end at the table? Were you allowed to lay your finger aside your nose and blow a wad all over the sidewalk just outside the door? When you were going out the door, did you hold it open for the next person going out or coming in?

[/color][/b]

No, I was taught proper manners and respect for others. But how could that be true, since I was never beaten? How is it possible to teach a kid manners without beating him?

[Mr.B]

No, I was taught proper manners and respect for others. But how could that be true, since I was never beaten? How is it possible to teach a kid manners without beating him?

Now you are sounding like Vrede. It's time to go. His poison is spreading.

[O Really]

No, I was taught proper manners and respect for others. But how could that be true, since I was never beaten? How is it possible to teach a kid manners without beating him?

Now you are sounding like Vrede. It's time to go. His poison is spreading.

It's not poison - just simple logic, with a touch of sarcasm. I told you, personal experience, that I was taught manners without beatings. You said you were taught manners with beatings. Looks like the beatings aren't necessarily the main factor.

[O Really]

As to my Mum, Mr.B, you probably would have considered her "snooty." She did have high standards, not only on behaviour, but on literacy, education, and language use. She would never have intentionally hurt anyone's feelings (that would of course have been coarse), but if you weren't somebody who was trying to make the best of your abilities, or who didn't try to improve yourself, she didn't respect you very much. My parents made a good couple - she, from an upper class British family taking a big hit in the war - he, from abject poverty who became a decorated WWII vet, civil rights activist and psychiatrist - both who knew hard work, value of education and strength in adversity. But somehow, they managed to raise their kid without beatings. Of course, some could (and would) say that having a kid turn out to be a lawyer is pretty much a failure, but despite that, I've had a good life, reared a son and step daughter who by any common measure are successful and have their own families - and none of us got beaten. How can that be?

[neoplacebo]

Even taking "punishment" as it's own category, there are many more ways to punish other than beating. Taking away something the child values, making them miss something important to them, curtailing valued privileges, requiring extra work, yada. Hell, a beating may be violent and psychologically damaging, but probably most kids would take one instead of having to stay home and miss a (game, party, whatever) where all their friends will be. Or giving up their mobile.

That was a point I also thought of but didn't mention.....that back when I grew up, there weren't that many options in the way of punishment. About the only thing that I could be denied was being able to ride my bicycle with my friends (this is actually the only other punishment I can ever recall having). Being confined to my room would not be thought of by me or my parents as punishment. And I am pretty sure that back in high school, one had the choice of three whacks from a wooden ass paddle or something else. I can't recall what the other option was....probably a period of suspension from classes or something, but as far as I know everyone took the whacks instead of the other choice. This was in the early 70's. I would estimate I got probably fifteen whacks total during my high school tenure. The whole experience was weird; here you have the person of authority preparing to serve you up some pain via physical violence....you and the authority person both know this, and still the experience had sort of a silly and futile aspect to it. All the corporal punishment I ever received after the age of about 12 was courtesy of the public school system; the first time about 1966 and the last about 1972.

[JTA]

"OK, I'll give you some personal life examples of life...."

Your mother sounds like a wise woman, if not somewhat snooty who looked down her nose at others, although instilling good manners in her kids.

As I stated earlier, discipline doesn't always have to be physical, re her teaching you manners; for instance "So you knew elbows don't go on the table, soup is not slurped, and you don't interrupt while somebody else is speaking"...to name a few.

I mentioned the conversation interrupters earlier, so let's go into a restaurant. Were you allowed to wear a hat/cap at the table? or even in the house? Were you allowed to belch/fart or pick your teeth at the table? Were you allowed to loudly purge your nostrils or hawk up a wad at the table? Were you allowed to use the restaurant's cloth napkins to blow your nose on? Were you allowed to pick your nose or scratch your head/hind end at the table? Were you allowed to lay your finger aside your nose and blow a wad all over the sidewalk just outside the door? When you were going out the door, did you hold it open for the next person going out or coming in?

These are some of the things we see every time we go out; that's some of the things I'm talking about when it comes to discipline in the home; and the offenders are not always your shoppers at WalMart. Most of them are well-dressed, neat-looking and drive newer model cars. Had any of us kids done any of those things, we weren't told to go sit in the corner...we would have had to stand if we went. A whipping was swift and over with, and you knew why you got it.

We never got a spanking/whipping unless we earned it.

Can you explain the not wearing a hat inside a building thing? To me, that seems like an outdated, useless, "manner". I've never seen anyone really care about whether or not someone is wearing a hat indoors. I remember in school being told that it was ok for women to wear hats indoors, but not men, but was never given a proper explanation as to why. Are people so hyper-sensitive that they actually get offended by that nowadays? Or is it just older people stuck in a past when bourgeoisie fluff reigned supreme over common sense?

Blowing your nose at a table, farting, picking your nose, I can see those not being ok because that's just gross.

[O Really]

The hat thing is somewhat outdated, as styles in hats as well as manners change over time, but I suspect in some ways Mr.B might be, also.
But still, some of the instances Mr.B dislikes (such as hats on in real restaurants) are still applicable. Here's Emily Post's view:
http://www.emilypost.com/everyday-manne ... of-the-hat

Of course, people wearing hats and kids spitting might also be a reflection of the places Mr.B goes, too.