Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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O Really
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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Vrede too wrote:To be accurate, I never posted that Narcissistic Personality Disorder can't lead to success. In fact, I said that it might be an advantage for investigative journalists. Rather, I posted that it's incongruous with long term success in my profession.
That's true. But Seth has been tossing around the term in the form of an accusation, with at least the implication that it's something bad. To be sure, some with NPD turn into criminals, but for the ones that don't, it's not necessarily something one would consider insulting. For some jobs, it's pretty much an essential attribute. Could you imagine a high-ranking military officer without those traits? ;)

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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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My bad for making an incorrect assumption about the target and intent of your post, sorry.
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Seth Milner
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

Unread post by Seth Milner »

O Really wrote:Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a real condition, but having it doesn't make a person unsuccessful - in fact a lot of successful people do have it to one degree or another.
I've never doubted Vrede too's success; if anything he's to be applauded for his skill and patience in the medical field; it's a not-always-pleasant endeavor. I labeled him NPD because he may be a mild-mannered pussy-cat at work, but when he gets home and sits down at his PC, his personality evidently does a 180 and he lashes out at anyone who dares cross him. Maybe it's job-related frustrations, I don't know. Yes, I'm a journalist by trade, not a psychologist; but I've dealt with all kinds of people in my travels, and for the most part, I can read people pretty well.

Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder

In order for a person to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) they must meet five or more of the following symptoms:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Yep, that's 1
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Yep, that's one and a half
Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Yep, that's another.
Requires excessive admiration
Ditto
Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
You've done well so far; he expects every post of his should be replied to or countered.
Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
You're getting better all the time.
Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
When you're hot, you're hot!
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
You nailed that one too, re those "fantasizing about me" remarks.
Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Not 'regularly', all the time.

Sounds like most name partners in law firms, surgeons, a large number of politicians, most senior execs in business and of course, The Donald.
Well. . . Vrede too is rather enamored with the Donald.

I realize you didn't post this info to out your friend, but everything I commented on are traits that Vrede too is famous for and displays in practically every post or reply. Thanks for your help. :lol:
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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O Really wrote: Could you imagine a high-ranking military officer without those traits? ;)
Surely you don't mean homerfobe?
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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Seth Milner wrote:... lashes out at anyone who dares cross him....

:lol: Contrasted with your lashing out at me before we'd ever communicated. You're projecting again, and pretty stupidly. Don't be such a crybaby about the door you chose to open.

What "achievements and talents" have I exaggerated? Please provide quotes and citations, if you don't run away like you usually do.


... he expects every post of his should be replied to or countered.

Nope, I've come to expect you to duck your many factual flubs and everything that contradicts you or makes you uncomfortable, pansy, as you've now done scores of times. It's just fun to point it out when you do. Thanks!
O Really wrote:Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance ...
... Yep, that's one and a half

What "power" have I claimed? Please provide quotes and citations, if you don't run away like you usually do. Of course, "brilliance" relative to you is nothing to brag about.
O Really wrote:Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
...You nailed that one too, re those "fantasizing about me" remarks.

As O Really and others have pointed out many times, "fantasizing" does not have to be positive. For example, there's your Stalin-esque fantasizing that people that differ with you or expose your ineptness must be mentally ill, which is only exceeded by your megalomaniacal delusions that you have any psych expertise at all. Darn those multi-syllabic words, you fail English, again. Your "journalism" must have been a scream!

Oh well, it's not as bad as your lying about what "will be" means and then running away by whining about me some more when called out on your inattention, illiteracy and dishonesty (page 22).


... Well. . . Vrede too is rather enamored with the Donald....

:lol: As much as I'm "enamored with" Donald Duck. You fail English, again.

Oh wait, you were projecting yet again:
Seth Milner wrote:... a loose cannon may be what this country needs to replace our apologist (discussion run away from, as usual) administration and let the world know that the US is not to be screwed with.
Vrede too wrote:Of course, we all know from many, many forums that you're just regurgitating the current faddish whine of rightwingers as they desperately grasp for some excuse as to why they fail on facts, logic and reason - it's always someone else's fault for noticing that y'all are so incompetent.
Vrede too wrote:... If I was merely mean you could just blow me off or even put me on "ignore". What's clearly got you throwing such a tantrum is that your "facts", arguments and "reasoning" have been trashed and you just can't handle it.
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O Really
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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Seth Milner wrote:
O Really wrote: Could you imagine a high-ranking military officer without those traits? ;)
Surely you don't mean homerfobe?
Well, Homo may have NPD, but I seriously doubt he's a high-ranking military officer. He seems much more like some grumpy Chief Petty Officer to me. Like really petty.

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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

Unread post by O Really »

Seth Milner wrote:
I realize you didn't post this info to out your friend, but everything I commented on are traits that Vrede too is famous for and displays in practically every post or reply. Thanks for your help. :lol:
[/quote]
The symptoms of NPD are what they are - it's not my opinion. The interpretation of behaviour on an internet forum, however, may or may not have anything whatsoever to do with a real person. You've probably found a lot of personas in internet forums have an exaggerated sense of their own importance, seek attention, lack empathy, and are arrogant. That's five, making most internet posters NPD people.

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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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How I Infiltrated a White Pride Facebook Group and Turned It into 'LGBT Southerners for Michelle Obama'

http://www.vice.com/read/virgil-texas-w ... e=vicefbus

I was invited to a private group of about 2,500 called "confederate pride, heritage not hate."

The group consisted of more of the same good ol' boy palaver about Southern Pride and Confederate Lives Matter, peppered with tirades from a handful of out-and-out Stormfront white supremacists and neo-Nazis. I added a few dozen of my friends, who promptly started trolling the shit out of the group.

...

It should go without saying that the folks who have built their identities around a 150-year-old treasonous cause to keep human beings in bondage are not very good at the internet. The group's creator had no idea how to lock the banner image at the top of the page, so friends of mine added their own.

...

Image
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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:lol:

Had to look it up - Juche.
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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A clown with a flamethrower still has a flamethrower.
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Wneglia
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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I couldn't access the article as I had reached my limit of 5 free viewings, but this pretty much sums it up.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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Yeah, it's a stretch to compare it to the the slaver flag and I wouldn't have chosen "Racist" based on the content of the article. However, adjectives like militarist, revisionary, exploitative, irresponsible, diversionary, inaccurate, unaccountable, hypocritical, dishonest and wingnutty do apply to the Vietnam POW/MIA movement.

Here it is, Wneglia:
You know that racist flag? The one that supposedly honors history but actually spreads a pernicious myth? And is useful only to venal right-wing politicians who wish to exploit hatred by calling it heritage? It’s past time to pull it down.

Oh, wait. You thought I was referring to the Confederate flag. Actually, I’m talking about the POW/MIA flag.

I told the story in the first chapter of my 2014 book The Invisible Bridge: The Fall of Nixon and the Rise of Reagan: how Richard Nixon invented the cult of the “POW/MIA” in order to justify the carnage in Vietnam in a way that rendered the United States as its sole victim.

It began, as cultural historian H. Bruce Franklin has documented, with an opportunistic shift in terminology. Downed pilots whose bodies were not recovered—which, in the dense jungle of a place like Vietnam meant most pilots—had once been classified “Killed in Action/Body Unrecovered.”

During the Nixon years, the Pentagon moved them into a newly invented “Missing in Action” column. That proved convenient, for, after years of playing down the existence of American prisoners in Vietnam, in 1969, the new president suddenly decided to play them up.

He declared their treatment, and the enemy’s refusal to provide a list of their names, violations of the Geneva Conventions—the better to paint the North Vietnamese as uniquely cruel and inhumane. He also demanded the release of American prisoners as a precondition to ending the war.

This was bullshit four times over: first, because in every other conflict in human history, the release of prisoners had been something settled at the close of a war; second, because these prisoners only existed because of America’s antecedent violations of the Geneva Conventions in bombing civilians in an undeclared war; third, because, as bad as their torture of prisoners was, rather than representing some species of Oriental despotism, the Vietnam Communists were only borrowing techniques practiced on them by their French colonists (and incidentally paid forward by us in places like Abu Ghraib): see this as-told-to memoir by POW and future senator Jeremiah Denton. And finally, our South Vietnamese allies’ treatment of their prisoners, who lived manacled to the floors in crippling underground bamboo “tiger cages” in prison camps built by us, was far worse than the torture our personnel suffered.

(Time magazine quoted one South Vietnamese official who was confronted with stories of released prisoners moving “like crabs, skittering across the floor on buttocks and palms,” and responded with incredulity that such survivors even existed: “No one ever comes from the tiger cages alive.”)

Be that as it may: It worked. American citizens enacted a bizarre psychic reversal. A man from Virginia Beach, Virginia, described to a reporter the supposed treatment of American prisoners in North Vietnam: “They just dig holes in the ground and drop them in. They throw food down to them, and let them live there in their own waste.” In fact, that was how prisoners were treated in South Vietnam—as recently revealed in a shocking Life magazine exposé.

Children began wearing “POW bracelets,” drivers sported “POWs NEVER HAVE A NICE DAY” bumper stickers. As the late Jonathan Schell of The New Yorker memorably wrote during the war, the Americans were acting “as though the North Vietnamese had kidnapped 400 Americans and the United States had gone to war to retrieve them.”

Actually, it was worse: Whenever Nixon or one of his minions talked about the problem, they tended to use the number 1,400. The number of actual prisoners, was about 550. The number of downed, missing pilots were spoken of, prima facia, as if they were missing, too, although almost all of them were certainly dead.

And in 1971 that damned flag went up.

The flag was the creation of the National League of Families of Prisoners of War, later the National League of Families of American Prisoners and Missing in Southeast Asia, a fascinating part of the story in itself.

The organization was founded by POW wife Sybil Stockdale, during the Johnson administration, in an effort to embarrass LBJ and challenge his line that all in Vietnam was going swell. Johnson tried to silence them; Nixon’s people, however, spying opportunity, coopted the group, sometimes inventing chapters outright, to fan the propaganda flames.

Then the war ended, the POWs (yes, all the POWs) were repatriated to great fanfare, one of them declaring: “I want you to remember that we walked out of Hanoi as winners”—a declaration that seemed to suggest, almost, that by surviving, the POWs had won the Vietnam War.

The moral confusion was abetted by the flag: the barbed-wire misery of that stark white figure, emblazoned in black.

It memorializes Americans as the preeminent victims of the Vietnam War, a notion seared into the nation’s visual unconscious by the Oscar-nominated 1978 film The Deer Hunter, which depicts acts of sadism, which were documented to have been carried out by our South Vietnamese allies, as acts committed by our North Vietnamese enemies, including the famous scene pictured on The Deer Hunter poster: a pistol pointed at the American prisoner’s head at exactly the same angle of the gun in the famous photograph of the summary execution in the middle of the street of an alleged Communist spy by a South Vietnamese official.

By then, the league and its flag had become the Pentagon’s own Frankenstein’s monster. You can read about the mess that resulted in the definitive book on the subject: Until the Last Man Comes Home: POWs, MIAs, and the Unending Vietnam War by Northwestern University’s Michael J. Allen.

Allen describes how Vietnam’s “refusal” to “account for” a thousand phantoms became an impediment to reconciliation and diplomatic recognition between the two nations. (How bizarre, how insulting, how counterproductive this must have been to a nation that must have suffered missing corpses in the thousands upon thousands?)

A delegation led by Congressman Gillespie “Sonny” Montgomery (D-Miss.), chairman of the House Select Committee on Missing in Action in Southeast Asia, traveled to Vietnam in 1975, convinced of the Nixon administration’s deception that hundreds of “MIAs actually” existed. The members of Congress returned home, having found their Communist hosts warm and accommodating, doubting there were any missing at all. In hearings, a CIA pilot captured there in 1965 testified: “If you take a wallet-full of money over there, you can buy all the information you want on POWs on the streets.”

The House committee also produced evidence that China had manufactured stories of MIA in Vietnamese prison camps in order to keep the U.S. from normalizing relations with China’s Asian rival. No matter that the flag’s promoters were abetting an actual, real-live Communist conspiracy, from its original sightings above VFW and American Legion posts, the “You Are Not Forgotten” flag became as common as kudzu.

Midwifing an entire metastasizing Pentagon bureaucracy, the League of Families would also become an irritant to every future president. By 1993, 17 Americans were stationed in Hanoi in charge of searching for the missing and working to repatriate remains. They were provided a budget of $100 million a year, “over 30 times the value of U.S. humanitarian aid paid to Vietnam,” Allen writes.

It would have been evidence of Ronald Reagan’s old saw that the closest thing to eternal life is a government program—if Reagan were not a prime culprit: In 1988, he became the first president to fly the flag over the White House. The next year, Congress installed the flag in the Capitol rotunda.

In 1990, it was designated “a symbol of our nation’s concern and commitment to restoring and resolving as fully as possible the fates of Americans still prisoner, missing and unaccounted for in Southeast Asia.” Thus ending the uncertainty for their families and the nation.

The League of Families also still exists, and “continues to work at keeping the pressure on both Washington and Hanoi to bring complete resolution to this issue on behalf of each family with a loved one still missing in Vietnam.” My own state of Illinois holds a ceremony every year to honor the “66 Illinoisans listed as MIA or POW in Southeast Asia.”

And Bernie Sanders posted an image of the POW/MIA flag on Facebook in response to Donald Trump’s insult against John McCain. The message read: “They are all heroes.”

Actually, as I document in The Invisible Bridge, it’s more complicated than that: many of the prisoners were anti-war activists. One member of the “Peace Committee” within the POW camps, Abel Larry Kavanaugh, was harassed into suicide after his return to the U.S. by the likes of Admiral James Stockdale, who tried to get Peace Committee members hanged for treason.

Stockdale would become one of the nation’s most celebrated former POWs and a vice-presidential candidate. Kavanaugh took his life in his father in law’s basement in Commerce City, Colorado, in June 1973. Americans would agree that one of them—Stockdale or Kavanaugh—is not a hero—though they would disagree about which one is which.

That damned flag: It’s a shroud. It smothers the complexity, the reality, of what really happened in Vietnam.

We’ve come to our senses about that other banner of lies. It’s time to do the same with this.
Notice that Liarbart doesn't even attempt to challenge any of the factual assertions, just the conclusion summed up in the headline.
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Wneglia
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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Before I saw the spoiler, I thought I was going to see something like this:

Image

:mrgreen:

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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

Unread post by Vrede too »

Some people feel that way.

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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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Seth Milner wrote:
Vrede too wrote:
Seth Milner wrote:... True, the southern states were slave-holding states, but the roots of the rebel flag go well beyond mere "slavery pride".
That's what white folks keep saying, few blacks believe it.
"Saying" and "believing"; two key words here. What people say and what people believe are as old as time. In regards to the flag comments, these are expressed OPINIONS; I stated mine above, and you stated yours.

The rebel flag was not originally a symbol of racism, nor was it intended to be, regardless how people felt, or still feel about it. It was/is a battle flag, differing in appearance than the flag of the Union that the southern states wanted to secede from. Slave ownership played a part in their desire to secede; therefore it was ASSUMED that slave ownership was the sole purpose of the south having a different flag than the north.

... Opinions of what the rebel flag stood for are as varied as opinions or interpretations of the Constitution, the Bible, The Bill of Rights, the Pledge of Allegiance, standing for the judge's entrance to the courtroom, how to make real clam chowder, etc. We all have differing opinions, none of which are absolutely right or absolutely wrong....
One of those "differing opinions":



But, what does the head of the history department at the US Military Academy at West Point know?
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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Slavery apologists will grasp as any straw. And just what, exactly, gives any instructor at West Point premier status over 1000 others?
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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You can always get different answers if you keep changing the question. The "reasons people fought" could be as varied as the individuals involved, and according to all accounts many of those fighting, particularly for the Confederacy, were coerced, either directly or through external pressures they couldn't change. Some fought because they feared invasion, and loss of their homes. But the question has to be why did the leaders secede in the first place, dragging their citizens behind them to destruction? There aren't "many" answers to that question. There aren't mitigating circumstances. There is no mystery or controversy. It's written in the documents of the time, and it's protection of slavery. The "way of life" is a life where slaves make the economy work. The "heritage" is a heritage of wealthy ummm, "gentlemen" running society, staffed with slaves. The "state's rights" were the right to keep slavery legal.

But none of that really matters in regard to the use of the battle flag of Northern Virginia now. I doubt many if any of the yayhoos driving around with the flag in the back of their trucks support, would fight for, or even vote for slavery to return. But since 1960ish, it's been the symbol of resistance to integration and civil rights - the flag of the "rebels." So the question should not be what did it mean originally, but what does it mean to you, today, Mr. Bubba?

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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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Boatrocker wrote:Slavery apologists will grasp at any straw.

Agreed.

And just what, exactly, gives (the head of the history department) at West Point premier status over 1000 others?

It doesn't over other historians with similar credentials. He just does it so excellently in under 6 minutes, and I thought Colonel Ty Seidule would be that much harder for Seth Milner to pretentiously dismiss with "OPINIONS".
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O Really
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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

Unread post by O Really »

Vrede too wrote:... I thought Colonel Ty Seidule would be that much harder for Seth Milner to pretentiously dismiss with "OPINIONS".[/color]
[/quote]
Nah, he's a Yank. What would you expect him to say? Look up ol Foogle posts - he'll give you the real truth.

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Re: Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

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O Really wrote:You can always get different answers if you keep changing the question. The "reasons people fought" could be as varied as the individuals involved, and according to all accounts many of those fighting, particularly for the Confederacy, were coerced, either directly or through external pressures they couldn't change. Some fought because they feared invasion, and loss of their homes.

Colonel Ty Seidule addresses that. Even the non-slaver poor white had an interest in not being on the bottom rung of the social ladder.

But the question has to be why did the leaders secede in the first place, dragging their citizens behind them to destruction? There aren't "many" answers to that question. There aren't mitigating circumstances. There is no mystery or controversy. It's written in the documents of the time, and it's protection of slavery. The "way of life" is a life where slaves make the economy work. The "heritage" is a heritage of wealthy ummm, "gentlemen" running society, staffed with slaves. The "state's rights" were the right to keep slavery legal.

Agreed.

But none of that really matters in regard to the use of the battle flag of Northern Virginia now. I doubt many if any of the yayhoos driving around with the flag in the back of their trucks support, would fight for, or even vote for slavery to return. But since 1960ish, it's been the symbol of resistance to integration and civil rights - the flag of the "rebels." So the question should not be what did it mean originally, but what does it mean to you, today, Mr. Bubba?

True, that's another fact that the racists and their apologists consistently duck. However, understanding that the flag was undeniably about the defense of slavery and that there's been a direct continuum from that to Jim Crow to current racism helps frame the debate when folks like Seth Milner claim it's just "OPINIONS" from the 1860s on.
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