Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

[O Really]

Or why so many people judge that war from their own 21th century morals.

I think there's a difference in judging the war and those who created and supported it from the behaviour of individuals. I may not be in the majority, but I wouldn't take down some guy's statue solely because he owned some slaves as long as he did something else fame-worthy and wasn't a strong proponent of retaining a slave system that clearly was on the way out worldwide.

[billy.pilgrim]

I don't doubt that most of those who fought in or supported that war were doing so with the best intent of their families and what they considered their country. Of course, that can also be said about Nazis and most every other bunch of insurrectionists that have taken up arms.

Unlike invading armies who claim some bs moral high ground for their wars - Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq.

[billy.pilgrim]

Or why so many people judge that war from their own 21th century morals.

I think there's a difference in judging the war and those who created and supported it from the behaviour of individuals. I may not be in the majority, but I wouldn't take down some guy's statue solely because he owned some slaves as long as he did something else fame-worthy and wasn't a strong proponent of retaining a slave system that clearly was on the way out worldwide.

That slave system could have been ended through sanctions. Aggressive war is never the answer.

[Ulysses]

History tells us that the Confederacy fired first:

Even as Lincoln took office in March 1861, Confederate forces threatened the federal-held Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina. On April 12, after Lincoln ordered a fleet to resupply Sumter, Confederate artillery fired the first shots of the Civil War. Sumter’s commander, Major Robert Anderson, surrendered after less than two days of bombardment, leaving the fort in the hands of Confederate forces under Pierre G.T. Beauregard.

Note: A resupply mission is not an attack!

https://www.history.com/topics/american ... #section_2

[Vrede too]

That slave system could have been ended through sanctions. Aggressive war is never the answer.

You're saying that SC should have blockaded Fort Sumter rather than firing on it? Okay.

The feds had not yet taken ANY action to end the slave system. It's that the South chose secession and WAR, thus removing the sanctions option, because they feared what the feds might someday do. Lincoln chose to preserve the Union and at first had no intention of ending the slave system in the South.

[GoCubsGo]

A blockade is an act of war.

[Vrede too]

A blockade is an act of war.

True, as is secession. I was just casting about for something SC could have done akin to "sanctions" and short of the "Aggressive war" it chose by bombarding Fort Sumter. What other nonviolent, non-secession actions could the South have selected in order to possibly preserve slavery? Idk.

[billy.pilgrim]

A blockade is an act of war.

True, as is secession. I was just casting about for something SC could have done akin to "sanctions" and short of the "Aggressive war" it chose by bombarding Fort Sumter. What other nonviolent, non-secession actions could the South have selected in order to possibly preserve slavery? Idk.

Why is secession an act of war? That one is new to me.

In the early 1800s, didn't most states believe that they could leave the Union? The South did and New England did.

Why did Lincoln abandoned every Southern fort but Pickens and Sumpter?

[Vrede too]

Why is secession an act of war? That one is new to me.

It's obvious that dissolution of a country is an act of war against that country. Partition not agreed to by both sides has always required large scale violence.

One huge reason is the millions of AMERICAN citizens who did not agree with secession had just been kidnapped into a wannabe foreign country, and the young males were soon forced to fight for it. No nation tolerates this being done to its CITIZENS.

In the early 1800s, didn't most states believe that they could leave the Union? The South did and New England did.

Citation needed for New England, and the South was wrong and got its ass kicked for trying. It's not like SCOTUS ever sided with the South on the issue.

Why did Lincoln abandoned every Southern fort but Pickens and Sumpter?

Citation needed. If so, I would guess because isolated federal forts were indefensible vs the traitors, but . What's your point if you're correct?

[billy.pilgrim]

Why is secession an act of war? That one is new to me.

It's obvious that dissolution of a country is an act of war against that country. Partition not agreed to by both sides has always required large scale violence.

One huge reason is the millions of AMERICAN citizens who did not agree with secession had just been kidnapped into a wannabe foreign country, and the young males were soon forced to fight for it. No nation tolerates this being done to its CITIZENS.

In the early 1800s, didn't most states believe that they could leave the Union? The South did and New England did.

Citation needed for New England, and the South was wrong and got its ass kicked for trying. It's not like SCOTUS ever sided with the South on the issue.

Why did Lincoln abandoned every Southern fort but Pickens and Sumpter?

Citation needed. If so, I would guess because isolated federal forts were indefensible vs the traitors, but . What's your point if you're correct?

You really don't know about New England?

[Vrede too]

You really don't know about New England?

... Citation needed for New England, and the South was wrong and got its ass kicked for trying. It's not like SCOTUS ever sided with the South on the issue....

[O Really]

Everybody could play "who started it" forever, and certainly there is blame to go around. But my question has little to do with the war itself. It happened; it ended with the Southern forces in total defeat. Winners get to write the history. Why are we still letting the rebels be revered in 2022?

[Ulysses]

[Vrede too]

CMA Fest bans Confederate flags and imagery for 1st time: It 'will not be tolerated'

The CMA Festival has banned Confederate flags and imagery.

The four-day event, which takes place June 9 to 12 in Nashville, brings country music's biggest stars. But — for the first time — there is a ban on "Confederate flag imagery of any kind" on festival grounds, according to the event's prohibited items list.

It states Confederate flag imagery "will NOT be permitted at any CMA Fest location," as it's widely viewed as a symbol of racism, slavery and segregation in the U.S. Those who show up at the event, which typically draws about 50,000 country music fans, displaying it could be refused admittance without refund of admission....

Further quotes from CMA Festival plus excellent quotes from:
Stagecoach festival in Indio, Calif.
Luke Combs
Maren Morris
Mickey Guyton, a Black country singer
Faith Hill

[Ulysses]

CMA Fest bans Confederate flags and imagery for 1st time: It 'will not be tolerated'

The CMA Festival has banned Confederate flags and imagery.

The four-day event, which takes place June 9 to 12 in Nashville, brings country music's biggest stars. But — for the first time — there is a ban on "Confederate flag imagery of any kind" on festival grounds, according to the event's prohibited items list.

It states Confederate flag imagery "will NOT be permitted at any CMA Fest location," as it's widely viewed as a symbol of racism, slavery and segregation in the U.S. Those who show up at the event, which typically draws about 50,000 country music fans, displaying it could be refused admittance without refund of admission....

Further quotes from CMA Festival plus excellent quotes from:
Stagecoach festival in Indio, Calif.
Luke Combs
Maren Morris
Mickey Guyton, a Black country singer
Faith Hill

Good!

[billy.pilgrim]

Everybody could play "who started it" forever, and certainly there is blame to go around. But my question has little to do with the war itself. It happened; it ended with the Southern forces in total defeat. Winners get to write the history. Why are we still letting the rebels be revered in 2022?

Because wars suck and often the unintended consequences are worse than the original reasons the wars were fought.

[billy.pilgrim]

The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down
https://youtu.be/RfzsgYkJUfw

Interesting take:
Elevating the honor of those who fought and lost mixed with the joy of the war's end and devastating personal losses.
Written by a Mohawk who grew up on a Canadian reservation after spending time with a band member's Confederate sympathizer uncle and seeing the man's sense of loss as similar to the NA side of his family.

I'm against all war and mostly see patriotism as bullshit; both are always used by the 1% to push their own agendas.

I think Robbie gets what I'm trying to say and like me, he's often been misunderstood.

[billy.pilgrim]

You really don't know about New England?

... Citation needed for New England, and the South was wrong and got its ass kicked for trying. It's not like SCOTUS ever sided with the South on the issue....

Educate yourself. There's always The Google.

[Vrede too]

You really don't know about New England?

... Citation needed for New England, and the South was wrong and got its ass kicked for trying. It's not like SCOTUS ever sided with the South on the issue....

Educate yourself. There's always The Google.

Your reference is too vague. I would read a comprehensive history of New England, but it's already late in the afternoon.

[billy.pilgrim]

You really don't know about New England?

... Citation needed for New England, and the South was wrong and got its ass kicked for trying. It's not like SCOTUS ever sided with the South on the issue....

Educate yourself. There's always The Google.

Your reference is too vague. I would read a comprehensive history of New England, but it's already late in the afternoon.

My cut and paste would be a disservice to the event.

Not sure why you would need to study a comprehensive history, just Google - secession New England

They too asserted state sovereignty for their right to leave the Union. The close vote was greatly influenced by Jackson's victory at New Orleans.