O Really wrote:I'm thinking with a little creative lawyering and the ummm "flexibility" provided by PATRIOT (for example), that we ought to be able to get the NRA classified as a terrorist organization. Personally, if I were given the choice of banning "assault rifles" or banning the NRA, I'd get rid of the NRA.
And, afterward, by extension, gun sales of any type, along with ammunition sales, would drop sans the scaremongering continually espoused by the NRA.
Again, however, they merely play to their ever-dying base, even as effective as it is, it's still a dying base (how much longer does Eastwood have on his clock? I mean, Heston is already gone ...)
mike wrote:And, afterward, by extension, gun sales of any type, along with ammunition sales, would drop sans the scaremongering continually espoused by the NRA.
...soldiers rappelling onto rooftops and the sound of gunfire...
...a military helicopter firing its machine guns as it flew over an area freeway...
...“I heard the machine gun fire and then I hit the deck…I didn’t know what to expect, and it was one of the loudest things I’d ever heard,”...
Did this sort of thing happen often during the Cold War?
mike wrote:And, afterward, by extension, gun sales of any type, along with ammunition sales, would drop sans the scaremongering continually espoused by the NRA.
...soldiers rappelling onto rooftops and the sound of gunfire...
...a military helicopter firing its machine guns as it flew over an area freeway...
...“I heard the machine gun fire and then I hit the deck…I didn’t know what to expect, and it was one of the loudest things I’d ever heard,”...
Did this sort of thing happen often during the Cold War?
One of my disappointments regarding Obama is the ever continuing "Homeland Security" theater introduced by the previous administration (whose name will not be mentioned) which created such idiotic, unscheduled "drills."
Mad American wrote:
Vrede do you even know what it takes to get a CCP? ....
I'm guessing Vrede does know, but in case he doesn't, let's summarize: waste half a day sitting in a class where a guy reads to you then gives you a "test" to which he gives you "hints" for answers. Go fire 50 rounds. Get a certificate. Get fingerprints. Pay the state around $100. Put your card in your wallet and voila! you're "qualified" to carry concealed in 40 or so states.
Alas, O'really, you are incorrect. You have left out one, very large, three part step.
Mad American wrote:Vrede do you even know what it takes to get a CCP?
It's public record.
I'd guess probably not because your statement of holders "that may have fallen through the cracks" is just as nonsensical as your 1 and 2 points.
You believe government and the data bases it collects from thousands of jurisdictions are infallible? Wow.
As far as publishing the records I don't care one way or the other.
Some of your gun nut fellow travelers do.
However, your argument would hold more validity with those you hope to persuade if you knew what you were talking about.
Gee, did you already forget what you were talking about? Let me remind you, it was just yesterday:
Mad American wrote:...I'm all in favor of strengthening the background checks to include mental health records...
And what are you criticizing me for posting? Here, I'll make the salient part big and bold for you:
Vrede wrote:...3) Having the information remain public allows citizens to catch permit holders that may have fallen through the cracks and are not actually legally allowed to possess guns due to mental disease or criminal history...
So, was it yesterday that you did not know "what you were talking about" or today? It's gotta be one or the other and you've voided any credibility in accusing me of being ignorant. Good one.
Now, run away, you always do.
If you know the process then post it. You don't know what it takes and are merely running off a the mouth again in your holier than thou way. If you actually KNEW the process then you would know thtone of your statements above, in regard to obtaining a CCP, is very inaccurate.
Poor vrede.....see if you actually knew what the process was for obtaining a CCP, (not a purchase, we are talking about CCP's now) you would know that the applicant must obtain mental health records directly from mental HEALTH CARE FACILITIES,( three of them) not the government. So in order for your vile distrust of the process to be true, that means that you also distrust the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY'S record keeping. Funny, haven't you claimed to be part of that very industry???
I do agree that there needs to be better mental records available for checks during the purchase process. However, your letter you so proudly posted had nothing to do with that and addressed CCP holders and that is a process that is VERY thorough!
Mad American wrote:Poor vrede.....see if you actually knew what the process was for obtaining a CCP, (not a purchase, we are talking about CCP's now) you would know that the applicant must obtain mental health records directly from mental HEALTH CARE FACILITIES,( three of them) not the government.
So silly. First, you're admitting that it's dependent on the applicant to be honest and not fake records or claim that there are none to be found. Second, we have thousands of mental HEALTH CARE FACILITIES (so nascarfan88-ish of you to use all caps), records from three are meaningless.
Again vrede you are proving your ignorance. The REQUEST for records is sent from the applicant to the facility, with a return address to the SHERIFF of the county of applicant's residence. So any records found are sent directly back to the Sheriff. There is no way to falsify the information. In addition the request is also a release for records search, which I have no idea how in depth or far each facility will search outside of their own walls. Why can you not simply admit that you have no idea of how the concealed carry permitting process works?
So in order for your vile distrust of the process to be true, that means that you also distrust the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY'S record keeping. Funny, haven't you claimed to be part of that very industry???
Yes, I am in healthcare, but not on the record keeping end and not in a mental health facility, and I know for a fact that healthcare record keeping isn't perfect. Plus, even if it was, federal compilation of the data would also have to be perfect, not just pretty good. Then, local jurisdiction reporting of criminal records and federal compilation of the same would also have to be 100% perfect. You also know that none of these are true, as you admitted two days ago and several times prior, you just don't have the spine to tell us that you were wrong to attack me yesterday and that you've already busted yourself.
I did not attack. I simply pointed out your ignorance of the permitting process. Nice to know how much faith you put in your own industry though.
Poor "Brave" American.
I do agree that there needs to be better mental records available for checks during the purchase process. However, your letter you so proudly
So silly, pride had nothing to do with it. It's a current issue, I have an opinion, and I posted it here so that others could choose to weigh in or not with the Commissioners, Governor and legislators. Nothing more.
Why the need to post your political activism on here. You wrote a letter (an inaccurate letter by the way) big deal. I can't help but notice you have also posted other letters as well. Why the need???
posted had nothing to do with that and addressed CCP holders and that is a process that is VERY thorough!
Do you really think that now claiming that the system is already perfect, in contradiction of your many statements otherwise, actually discredits the notion that citizens can help make enforcement better or covers for the fact that your nonsensical attack was so embarrassing to you? Wow, good luck with that.
All of my other statements have been in regards to the NICS/background checks for PURCHASES. Where mental health records are rarely, if ever, accessed to determine purchase eligibility We are discussing your inaccurate opinion of the concealed carry permitting process. Where not only are the purchase checks carried out, also a training class takes place, fingerprints are checked against criminal files, mental health records are checked, and a subjective judgement is made by the Sheriff Please do try to keep up, or are you intentionally twisting the argument so as not to have the egg on your face
Those extra requirements aren't part of the process in Florida, Mad. No visit to contribute to a sheriff, no release of mental health records. Yet a Florida CCP is available to people in NC and is valid in NC, so as long as there isn't a national standard, the real requirements are only as good as the worst of the bunch.
O Really wrote:Those extra requirements aren't part of the process in Florida, Mad. No visit to contribute to a sheriff, no release of mental health records. Yet a Florida CCP is available to people in NC and is valid in NC, so as long as there isn't a national standard, the real requirements are only as good as the worst of the bunch.
I am not familiar with the Florida process and we are addressing vrede's concern and lack of knowledge with the North Carolina process. However, if that is the case in Florida then there is a major hole there and it needs to be repaired.
So, all the batshitcrazy people out there- like that armed asshole squatting in a homemade bunker down in Dale Co. AL with an autistic 5 yr old he kidnapped from a school bus after killing the driver- have mental health records?
Boatrocker wrote:So, all the batshitcrazy people out there- like that armed asshole squatting in a homemade bunker down in Dale Co. AL with an autistic 5 yr old he kidnapped from a school bus after killing the driver- have mental health records?
Not all of them, undoubtedly, but probably this guy does. He's a Vietnam vet, widely believed to have PTSD. But as Vrede pointed out, you're OK to run around batshitcrazy as long as you don't get locked up for being crazy.
Vrede wrote:
Because it makes no difference, goofball. You are still assuming that the applicant admits to the existence of any mental health records at all, that s/he sends "The REQUEST" (so nascarfan88-ish of you to use all caps) to the facility where s/he was treated, that the facility's record keeping is perfect, and that the federal compilation is also perfect.
Of course, there can be failure with any one or more of these steps, as you admit: "I have no idea how in depth or far each facility will search outside of their own walls." Thanks for that, though you still don't have the spine to tell us that you were wrong to attack me yesterday and that you've already busted yourself.
Keep talking vrede you are only proving yourself more ignorant on the process the more you speak. The locations that the requests are sent is MANDATED by the process. The applicant does not get to choose.
That is an attack, especially when my undeniable point is that the system isn't perfect, as you've already admitted many times, and has nothing to do with the particulars of the permitting process.
I only asked if you knew what was involved in the permitting process. You refused to answer and have now proven that in fact you do not.
You have yet to ID an inaccuracy. Your ridiculous belief in perfection doesn't count.
You have identified them for me. All you had to do was swallow your pride and admit you had sent a letter to government officials that was based in a lack of knowledge of a process. You did not do that and have now been proven ignorant on the subject. No skin off my nose but apparently it really puts a burr under your saddle.
I'll try large and bold, but it's obvious you need to find someone to explain it to you.
It's a current issue, I have an opinion, and I posted it here so that others could choose to weigh in or not with the Commissioners, Governor and legislators. Nothing more.
Yes, vrede if it is one thing we ALL know it is that you have an opinion and are more than ready to share it. Problem is, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one, and they ALL STINK...including yours!
The only egg on a face is your stupid and outrageous assertion that the systems - data entry, applicant veracity, reporting and compilation - are perfect. As you know better than I, nascarfan88 is proof that government, let alone healthcare, is not perfect.
Your obsession with nascarfan is duly noted again.....I would seek therapy for that.
Obviously, informed and interested citizens can make help the process work better for those times when the systems fail.
Informed? By whom? You are the most misinformed person here when it comes to guns and permitting processes. Yet when your inaccuracies are pointed out you will argue to the bitter end that no matter how wrong you actually are, in your mind you are still correct. You REFUSE to be informed with accurate information and quite frankly I would not want you or anyone LIKE you making a "judgement" call on anything.
O Really wrote:Those extra requirements aren't part of the process in Florida, Mad. No visit to contribute to a sheriff, no release of mental health records. Yet a Florida CCP is available to people in NC and is valid in NC, so as long as there isn't a national standard, the real requirements are only as good as the worst of the bunch.
I am not familiar with the Florida process and we are addressing vrede's concern and lack of knowledge with the North Carolina process. However, if that is the case in Florida then there is a major hole there and it needs to be repaired.
You miss the point. Nobody in NC has to understand or go through the NC process to get a CCP valid in the state. So from a practical standpoint, no matter what the NC law says, it's the Florida process that counts. IMNVHO, the "major hole" that needs to be fixed is the wide variation in state laws. Ought to be one national law governing CCP.
O Really wrote:Those extra requirements aren't part of the process in Florida, Mad. No visit to contribute to a sheriff, no release of mental health records. Yet a Florida CCP is available to people in NC and is valid in NC, so as long as there isn't a national standard, the real requirements are only as good as the worst of the bunch.
I am not familiar with the Florida process and we are addressing vrede's concern and lack of knowledge with the North Carolina process. However, if that is the case in Florida then there is a major hole there and it needs to be repaired.
You miss the point. Nobody in NC has to understand or go through the NC process to get a CCP valid in the state. So from a practical standpoint, no matter what the NC law says, it's the Florida process that counts. IMNVHO, the "major hole" that needs to be fixed is the wide variation in state laws. Ought to be one national law governing CCP.
I can agree with that. However, if there is a national program then the permit is good in all 50 states. There should be no reciprocity agreements.
The issue right now in this discussion the fact that vrede posted a letter to North Carolina officials regarding North Carolina permits with no knowledge of the process. I called him on it and now he has his hand stuck in the cookie jar and simply will not let go of the cookie in order to remove it.
I oppose efforts to remove the names of concealed carry permit holders from the public record.
1) The argument that it makes "targets out of law-abiding gun owners" is nonsensical, unless they are ashamed of being gun owners. It's not like anyone is out there trying to assassinate gun owners.
2) The argument "that homes without guns may be targeted by criminals" is also nonsensical. Lots of people have guns without being concealed carry permit holders.
3) Having the information remain public allows citizens to catch permit holders that may have fallen through the cracks and are not actually legally allowed to possess guns due to mental disease or criminal history.
4) Most importantly, government should always err on the side of openness. Since there is no reason for hiding these public records that passes the sniff test, they should not be made secret.
I await your reply.
Sincerely,
(Vrede)
Vrede do you even know what it takes to get a CCP? I'd guess probably not because your statement of holders "that may have fallen through the cracks" is just as nonsensical as your 1 and 2 points. As far as publishing the records I don't care one way or the other. However, your argument would hold more validity with those you hope to persuade if you knew what you were talking about.
As I explained to Phantom109 back on the GoUpState forum.. CWP are a near perfect means of keeping track of the hardcore gunnuts.. the one's so frightened of the world that they feel the need to pack heat 24/7.. The plus side is that we have their IDs and fingerprints so when the time comes to round them up ..we know where to start.. ..
This guy.. Phantom109/scgunner(xx) by his own admission is the Owner/Instructor of a concealed weapons training business in South Carolina... He doesn't give a crap about public safety... I imagine he's delighted about the business driven his way by the fear and panic hyped by rightwing nitwits..
Mad American wrote:Vrede do you even know what it takes to get a CCP? I'd guess probably not because your statement of holders "that may have fallen through the cracks" is just as nonsensical
It still doesn't matter. Anyone smart and sane knows that perfection is impossible and that informed and aware citizens can help improve the process. And, anyone with a spine would admit this imperfection once it's been pointed out.
as your 1
Yes, we're all aware how paranoid and frightened you are.
and 2 points.
Wow, you don't know that people can legally have guns without being CCP holders? That is a surprise to me, even I wouldn't have guessed that you are that ignorant.
As far as publishing the records I don't care one way or the other.
Gee, you've put so much effort into making a fool of yourself on an issue you don't care about. That's crazy.
However, your argument would hold more validity with those you hope to persuade if you knew what you were talking about.
It's not me, practically everyone in the world but you knows that healthcare and government record keeping and management are not perfect.
As always, your ignorance and inability to think logically makes a stronger case for gun control than I could ever hope to. Thanks.
Whatever vrede. Your ignorance of the North Carolina concealed carry permitting process has been proven and yet you continue to dig yourself a hole. Ever stop to think that as it starts getting dark it might be time to put down the shovel?
Once again as always, your ignorance and inability to receive fact when presented make a stronger case for not allowing citizens into the process than I could ever hope to. No, thank YOU!!!
Vrede wrote:
That said, I'm not sure that I'd be in favor of forcing all states to be less restrictive than they might wish to be. There are meaningful differences between largely rural ND and largely urban NY. But, that's another discussion.
It is another discussion, but related. Now that a large portion of the population is discussing gun legislation, it seems a good time to get universal CCP rules, which would as an additional benefit improve the CCP owners database and tracking capability.
BTW, it's funny that NRA doesn't like public access to carry permits. When I got a permit years ago in Florida, the database was open. About a couple of weeks after my permit came in the mail, I got a large envelope with "NRA" written all over it, seeking my "support" yada. Obviously got my name from the registration list. I used their self-addressed envelope as a poop-scooper and returned it. (Not really, but they did get a very sternly worded letter telling them to drop me from their list and never let any of their bullshit pass my mailbox again.)
Vrede wrote:What makes you think that Mad American is Phantom109/scgunner(xx)? Not that I'm doubting you, I suppose he could be Asheville firefighter nascarfan88, too.
Same position.. same talking points.. in some cases verbatim posts from GoUpState.. It may also be nascarfan but it's Phantom..
as for scgunner(xx) I had to use (xx) because the full user name would be but one or two Googles away from his real name.. .
