Gun Legislation

[Vrede too]

(Signature: obsessed )

Vrede means "Peace" in Dutch, whiny moron. This 180 degree difference may help explain the many European wars.

[Vrede too]

Nearly half of bald and golden eagles in the US have chronic lead poisoning, most likely from bullet fragments


Lead-poisoned bald eagle admitted to The Raptor Center in Minnesota.

It's a common pattern during hunting season in the winter: Hunters shoot elk or deer, then eagles scavenge the waste....

"Every single time a lead bullet hits a deer, it fragments into many, many pieces," Todd Katzner, a research wildlife biologist at the US Geological Survey and co-author of the study, told Insider. "It only takes a tiny fragment, something the size of the head of a pin, to kill an eagle." ...


Copper bullet (left) versus lead core bullet (right) before and after impact.

... "Over a 20-year period, you're talking about thousands and thousands and thousands of [eagles] that are being removed from the population," Katzner said.

Neither golden eagles nor bald eagles are endangered species. The US bald eagle population has more than quadrupled since 2009, from around 72,000 to 317,000 birds. But the US golden eagle population is still relatively small — around 30,000 birds — and at risk of declining.

On the bright side, hunters are also ingesting lead fragments.

Scientists have known about lead exposure in eagles for several decades.

"Every so often, eagles end up in a rehabilitation facility. They're sick and they get X-rayed and you can see fragments of lead in their digestive tract," Katzner said....

(Vince Slabe, a research wildlife biologist at the nonprofit Conservation Science Global and a co-author of the study) said he expects lots of hunters to "willingly switch from lead to non-lead" bullets "once they find out they're potentially poisoning animals."

The California Department of Fish and Wildlife already requires hunters to use non-lead ammunition, such as copper bullets. The New York Department of Environmental Conservation and Alaska Department of Health and Social Services advise hunters to do the same.

Slabe is dreaming. Hunter and ammosexual groups have opposed dumping lead for a long time. Copper, etc would require their Bubba members to be competent shots.

[billy.pilgrim]

Nearly half of bald and golden eagles in the US have chronic lead poisoning, most likely from bullet fragments


Lead-poisoned bald eagle admitted to The Raptor Center in Minnesota.

It's a common pattern during hunting season in the winter: Hunters shoot elk or deer, then eagles scavenge the waste....

"Every single time a lead bullet hits a deer, it fragments into many, many pieces," Todd Katzner, a research wildlife biologist at the US Geological Survey and co-author of the study, told Insider. "It only takes a tiny fragment, something the size of the head of a pin, to kill an eagle." ...


Copper bullet (left) versus lead core bullet (right) before and after impact.

... "Over a 20-year period, you're talking about thousands and thousands and thousands of [eagles] that are being removed from the population," Katzner said.

Neither golden eagles nor bald eagles are endangered species. The US bald eagle population has more than quadrupled since 2009, from around 72,000 to 317,000 birds. But the US golden eagle population is still relatively small — around 30,000 birds — and at risk of declining.

On the bright side, hunters are also ingesting lead fragments.

Scientists have known about lead exposure in eagles for several decades.

"Every so often, eagles end up in a rehabilitation facility. They're sick and they get X-rayed and you can see fragments of lead in their digestive tract," Katzner said....

(Vince Slabe, a research wildlife biologist at the nonprofit Conservation Science Global and a co-author of the study) said he expects lots of hunters to "willingly switch from lead to non-lead" bullets "once they find out they're potentially poisoning animals."

The California Department of Fish and Wildlife already requires hunters to use non-lead ammunition, such as copper bullets. The New York Department of Environmental Conservation and Alaska Department of Health and Social Services advise hunters to do the same.

Slabe is dreaming. Hunter and ammosexual groups have opposed dumping lead for a long time. Copper, etc would require their Bubba members to be competent shots.

I read this somewhere a few days or a week ago. It's nagged at me since.

If the hunters missed, how would it harm the eagles?

If they hit their target, wouldn't they take it home?

The few upland birds and animals that are wounded and later eaten by an eagle. I'll go along with.

Fish - I wasn't aware that fish contain toxic levels of lead.

Eliminating lead for use over water was a huge improvement and should account for an improving population.

They lost the lead fight for use over water, it won't be long before it's banned completely.

I just don't see much of a connection. There's gotta be more. Meanwhile, if this article startles people, as it did me, maybe we can get the lead out of ammunition. I think runoff and ground water contamination around gun ranges and a host of industries cause far more damage than hunters.

[Vrede too]

I read this somewhere a few days or a week ago. It's nagged at me since.

If the hunters missed, how would it harm the eagles?

If they hit their target, wouldn't they take it home? ...

Couple of answers depending on what you mean.

1. Hunters field dress their kills, leaving the offal in the field for eagles to eat. If they used lead shot, there will be small fragments.

2. With copper bullets you have to be a good enough shot to strike a vital organ. Otherwise, the target will survive. With lead, the fragmentation makes it easier to kill for incompetent hunters.

As for the rest, I take the experts at their word that the bigger problem is exposure from offal consumption. If you've got evidence to debunk them or supporting your speculation, I'm listening. That said, no reason that we shouldn't control your suggested sources, too.

Also, with fish it's not just shooting over water. It's also lead fishing weights that are lost and the fish end up consuming. Gotta stop that, too.

[billy.pilgrim]

I read this somewhere a few days or a week ago. It's nagged at me since.

If the hunters missed, how would it harm the eagles?

If they hit their target, wouldn't they take it home? ...

Couple of answers depending on what you mean.

1. Hunters field dress their kills, leaving the offal in the field for eagles to eat. If they used lead shot, there will be small fragments.

2. With copper bullets you have to be a good enough shot to strike a vital organ. Otherwise, the target will survive. With lead, the fragmentation makes it easier to kill for incompetent hunters.

As for the rest, I take the experts at their word that the bigger problem is exposure from offal consumption. If you've got evidence to debunk them or supporting your speculation, I'm listening. That said, no reason that we shouldn't control your suggested sources, too.

Also, with fish it's not just shooting over water. It's also lead fishing weights that are lost and the fish end up consuming. Gotta stop that, too.

And all have always been a problem, now partially corrected by removing lead from over water hunting.
In my experience field dressing is rare, but I know it's done where the animal is carried out.

#2 - correct

Are fish really toxic? I eat a lot of fish.

And I suspect that as usual we hate to blame industry.

[Vrede too]

And all have always been a problem, now partially corrected by removing lead from over water hunting.
In my experience field dressing is rare, but I know it's done where the animal is carried out.

#2 - correct

Are fish really toxic? I eat a lot of fish.

And I suspect that as usual we hate to blame industry.

"we"? I blame industry at every opportunity.

In my experience field dressing is the norm. Maybe it's an East vs West thing . I have not hung out with hunters in NC, but most western hunting requires a carry out, often over quite long distances. Prey have learned to shun settlements and roads during hunting season, because they can.

Idk about fresh water fish.

I don't really trust that hunters have stopped using lead over water since they can still buy lead shot and bullets, and a lot of hunters are assholes. As for fishing weights, most cooks and humans dining will find and remove them. Raptors wouldn't be as selective.

I know that many ocean fish are sketchy because they concentrate toxins. This is most true higher in the food chain.

[O Really]

Nothing is totally without hazard. I support getting rid of lead ammunition, heck I support getting rid of hunters, but in the meantime I think I'll take my chances with fresh fish.

[Vrede too]

Nothing is totally without hazard. I support getting rid of lead ammunition, heck I support getting rid of hunters, but in the meantime I think I'll take my chances with fresh fish.

It's searchable which fish are the greatest risk and how often they can be "safely" consumed. If I ate seafood I would probably err on the cautious side of those recommendations.

[billy.pilgrim]

And all have always been a problem, now partially corrected by removing lead from over water hunting.
In my experience field dressing is rare, but I know it's done where the animal is carried out.

#2 - correct

Are fish really toxic? I eat a lot of fish.

And I suspect that as usual we hate to blame industry.

"we"? I blame industry at every opportunity.

In my experience field dressing is the norm. Maybe it's an East vs West thing . I have not hung out with hunters in NC, but most western hunting requires a carry out, often over quite long distances. Prey have learned to shun settlements and roads during hunting season, because they can.

Idk about fresh water fish.

I don't really trust that hunters have stopped using lead over water since they can still buy lead shot and bullets, and a lot of hunters are assholes. As for fishing weights, most cooks and humans dining will find and remove them. Raptors wouldn't be as selective.

I know that many ocean fish are sketchy because they concentrate toxins. This is most true higher in the food chain.

"We" refers to the crap coming from the government and media

I think that if you would stop and think about this, you could see that the small numbers of hunting related instances of introducing lead into the wild food supply is minimal.

Field dressed animals still have some, much, or most of the lead in meat and bone when carried out

I would love to know why the Golden eagle population is dropping.
Around here the Ospreys came back about 20 to 25 years ago, Goldens started coming back about 15 years ago and there are Bald Eagles everywhere now. There's a pair nesting about a mile down the beach from me. Kinda amazing watching them fish.

Mercury and PCBs are much higher on the list of toxins found in fish. So, why would a relatively few stray lead pellets endanger the Golden eagle population?

This article points to lead from shells as the boogeyman and ignores mercury and other more common toxins.

You don’t have to trust. The game warden, fear of losing a hunting license and the fact that most hunters respect the rules insures that nearly all use steel shot.

[billy.pilgrim]

Nothing is totally without hazard. I support getting rid of lead ammunition, heck I support getting rid of hunters, but in the meantime I think I'll take my chances with fresh fish.

It's searchable which fish are the greatest risk and how often they can be "safely" consumed. If I ate seafood I would probably err on the cautious side of those recommendations.

Try search for the dangers of lead in fish. The article blames lead for the population decline.
Why not mercury?

[Vrede too]

"We" refers to the crap coming from the government and media

I invited you to post alternate data.

I think that if you would stop and think about this, you could see that the small numbers of hunting related instances of introducing lead into the wild food supply is minimal.

Field dressed animals still have some, much, or most of the lead in meat and bone when carried out

Why would the scientists invent their findings? You don't support "small numbers" or "much, or most". Anyhow:

... "Every single time a lead bullet hits a deer, it fragments into many, many pieces," Todd Katzner, a research wildlife biologist at the US Geological Survey and co-author of the study, told Insider. "It only takes a tiny fragment, something the size of the head of a pin, to kill an eagle." ...

'Enough' is the critical element, not where "much, or most" ends up.

I would love to know why the Golden eagle population is dropping.

Look again. The article doesn't say that.

... What's more, lead poisoning threatens to stymie the growth of eagle species. The researchers estimated that lead poisoning slowed the annual population growth of bald eagles by 4% and golden eagles by 1%....

Neither golden eagles nor bald eagles are endangered species. The US bald eagle population has more than quadrupled since 2009, from around 72,000 to 317,000 birds. But the US golden eagle population is still relatively small — around 30,000 birds — and at risk of declining.

"The role of that lead is probably greater for these golden eagle populations, just because these populations are so much smaller and they're in a more precarious situation," Katzner said....

Around here the Ospreys came back about 20 to 25 years ago, Goldens started coming back about 15 years ago and there are Bald Eagles everywhere now. There's a pair nesting about a mile down the beach from me. Kinda amazing watching them fish.

Cool, but a local anecdote tells us nothing about national population status.

If your birds mostly eat ocean fish year round it would suggest that they are at less risk than eagles that have to scavenge in winter, but idk.

Mercury and PCBs are much higher on the list of toxins found in fish.

Idk where your focus on fish is coming from. The article never says that lead in fish is a significant issue. In fact, it implies that fish are a safer alternative for the eagles when available:

... Acute poisoning was more common in winter, when eagle species had less access to their standard food sources, such as fish, rabbits, and squirrels.

"In the winter season, these animals become less abundant for both [eagle] species and their feeding habits change," Slabe said, adding, "They start scavenging a lot more." ...

So, why would a relatively few stray lead pellets endanger the Golden eagle population?

Because the blood work says that they are.

This article points to lead from shells as the boogeyman and ignores mercury and other more common toxins.

If you're going to posit that the researchers are too stupid or corrupt to check, you have to back it up.

You don’t have to trust. The game warden, fear of losing a hunting license and the fact that most hunters respect the rules insures that nearly all use steel shot.

Again, you invented this focus on fish. The article never suggested it. On land there is no restriction on lead shot and bullets except:

... The California Department of Fish and Wildlife already requires hunters to use non-lead ammunition, such as copper bullets. The New York Department of Environmental Conservation and Alaska Department of Health and Social Services advise hunters to do the same.

That said, it's weird that you distrust "the crap coming from the government", but you trust the government to so effectively regulate hunting.

Again, if there's evidence that the scientists are FoS, it should be easy for you to find it. I'm listening, but until then I distrust your credentials on the issue.

Try search for the dangers of lead in fish. The article blames lead for the population decline.
Why not mercury?

Again, you hallucinate "... in fish. The article blames lead for the population decline." It doesn't do that. I was talking about all toxins in fish - mercury is indeed a big one - in my response to O Really, not just lead. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Ulysses]

Nothing is totally without hazard. I support getting rid of lead ammunition, heck I support getting rid of hunters, but in the meantime I think I'll take my chances with fresh fish.

It's searchable which fish are the greatest risk and how often they can be "safely" consumed. If I ate seafood I would probably err on the cautious side of those recommendations.

Try search for the dangers of lead in fish. The article blames lead for the population decline.
Why not mercury?

When I took a university nutrition class on food toxicology, about 45 years ago, they discussed the perils of mercury, but it was focused on humans consuming contaminated fish, not on the effect on fish themselves.

Here's a light treatise on the subject:

The Toxicological Effects of Mercury Exposure in Marine Fish

Since the Minamata incident in Japan, the public have become increasingly aware of the negative health effects caused by mercury pollution in the ocean. Consequently, there has been significant interest in the health of humans eating fish exposed to mercury (Hg). However, the toxicity of mercury to the marine fish themselves has received far less attention. In this review, we summarize mercury accumulation in marine fish and the toxicological effects of mercury exposure. Results showed that the bioaccumulation of mercury in marine fish was highly variable, and its concentration was affected by the specific physiological and ecological characteristics of different fish species. Mercury exposure can produce teratogenic, neurotoxic effects, and reproductive toxicity. These effects can then cause harm to cells, tissues, proteins and genes, and ultimately, the survival, growth, and behavior of marine fish. Future studies should afford more attention to the toxicological effect of mercury exposure upon marine fish.

[billy.pilgrim]

"We" refers to the crap coming from the government and media

I invited you to post alternate data.

I think that if you would stop and think about this, you could see that the small numbers of hunting related instances of introducing lead into the wild food supply is minimal.

Field dressed animals still have some, much, or most of the lead in meat and bone when carried out

Why would the scientists invent their findings? You don't support "small numbers" or "much, or most". Anyhow:

... "Every single time a lead bullet hits a deer, it fragments into many, many pieces," Todd Katzner, a research wildlife biologist at the US Geological Survey and co-author of the study, told Insider. "It only takes a tiny fragment, something the size of the head of a pin, to kill an eagle." ...

'Enough' is the critical element, not where "much, or most" ends up.

I would love to know why the Golden eagle population is dropping.

Look again. The article doesn't say that.

... What's more, lead poisoning threatens to stymie the growth of eagle species. The researchers estimated that lead poisoning slowed the annual population growth of bald eagles by 4% and golden eagles by 1%....

Neither golden eagles nor bald eagles are endangered species. The US bald eagle population has more than quadrupled since 2009, from around 72,000 to 317,000 birds. But the US golden eagle population is still relatively small — around 30,000 birds — and at risk of declining.

"The role of that lead is probably greater for these golden eagle populations, just because these populations are so much smaller and they're in a more precarious situation," Katzner said....

Around here the Ospreys came back about 20 to 25 years ago, Goldens started coming back about 15 years ago and there are Bald Eagles everywhere now. There's a pair nesting about a mile down the beach from me. Kinda amazing watching them fish.

Cool, but a local anecdote tells us nothing about national population status.

If your birds mostly eat ocean fish year round it would suggest that they are at less risk than eagles that have to scavenge in winter, but idk.

Mercury and PCBs are much higher on the list of toxins found in fish.

Idk where your focus on fish is coming from. The article never says that lead in fish is a significant issue. In fact, it implies that fish are a safer alternative for the eagles when available:

... Acute poisoning was more common in winter, when eagle species had less access to their standard food sources, such as fish, rabbits, and squirrels.

"In the winter season, these animals become less abundant for both [eagle] species and their feeding habits change," Slabe said, adding, "They start scavenging a lot more." ...

So, why would a relatively few stray lead pellets endanger the Golden eagle population?

Because the blood work says that they are.

This article points to lead from shells as the boogeyman and ignores mercury and other more common toxins.

If you're going to posit that the researchers are too stupid or corrupt to check, you have to back it up.

You don’t have to trust. The game warden, fear of losing a hunting license and the fact that most hunters respect the rules insures that nearly all use steel shot.

Again, you invented this focus on fish. The article never suggested it. On land there is no restriction on lead shot and bullets except:

... The California Department of Fish and Wildlife already requires hunters to use non-lead ammunition, such as copper bullets. The New York Department of Environmental Conservation and Alaska Department of Health and Social Services advise hunters to do the same.

That said, it's weird that you distrust "the crap coming from the government", but you trust the government to so effectively regulate hunting.

Again, if there's evidence that the scientists are FoS, it should be easy for you to find it. I'm listening, but until then I distrust your credentials on the issue.

Try search for the dangers of lead in fish. The article blames lead for the population decline.
Why not mercury?

Again, you hallucinate "... in fish. The article blames lead for the population decline." It doesn't do that. I was talking about all toxins in fish - mercury is indeed a big one - in my response to O Really, not just lead. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I'll leave it here. We reduced lead by huge amounts, not only when it was removed from over water shotgun shells, but even more when removed from auto fuel and paint, so how can any recent decline in the eagle population be blamed on lead?

The common sense of it doesn't work for me.

Check into toxic metals and how they get into the water supply - the leader in dumping heavy metals into our and the eagles water supply is fracking.
For years I heard that smoking was OK.
That big cars were best.
That seat belts didn't work.
That there is no global warming
That fluorocarbon weren't destroying the ozone.

[Vrede too]

I'll leave it here. We reduced lead by huge amounts, not only when it was removed from over water shotgun shells, but even more when removed from auto fuel and paint, so how can any recent decline in the eagle population be blamed on lead?

Again, the article doesn't say that there is a "recent decline in the eagle population".

The common sense of it doesn't work for me.

Common sense is fine, but it's meaningless vs science unless there's some science to back it up. If this isn't easy to find, it's really common nonsense.

Check into toxic metals

You're asking me to "Check into" something when I've posted the only science and you've refused to post any? Wow.

and how they get into the water supply - the leader in dumping heavy metals into our and the eagles water supply is fracking.

Do they use lead in fracking?

For years I heard that smoking was OK.
That big cars were best.
That seat belts didn't work.
That there is no global warming
That fluorocarbon weren't destroying the ozone.

Straw men. In each case science proved those myths wrong. Why are you choosing to dispute science now? It's almost like you're invested in lead ammo makers.

[Ulysses]

I'll leave it here. We reduced lead by huge amounts, not only when it was removed from over water shotgun shells, but even more when removed from auto fuel and paint, so how can any recent decline in the eagle population be blamed on lead?

The common sense of it doesn't work for me.

Check into toxic metals and how they get into the water supply - the leader in dumping heavy metals into our and the eagles water supply is fracking.
For years I heard that smoking was OK.
That big cars were best.
That seat belts didn't work.
That there is no global warming
That fluorocarbon weren't destroying the ozone.

You are wise to demur.

Well said!

[Vrede too]

( )

You didn't read the article and you have no clue about the topic. You are so pathetically butthurt that you applaud anyone who disagrees with me. In this case you are cheering the rejection of science just like a Trumpette. Poor baby.

Also, I'm pretty sure that billy.pilgrim has come to detest you and has no interest in your uninformed endorsements. Maybe I'm wrong.

[billy.pilgrim]

I'll leave it here. We reduced lead by huge amounts, not only when it was removed from over water shotgun shells, but even more when removed from auto fuel and paint, so how can any recent decline in the eagle population be blamed on lead?

Again, the article doesn't say that there is a "recent decline in the eagle population".

The common sense of it doesn't work for me.

Common sense is fine, but it's meaningless vs science unless there's some science to back it up. If this isn't easy to find, it's really common nonsense.

Check into toxic metals

You're asking me to "Check into" something when I've posted the only science and you've refused to post any? Wow.

and how they get into the water supply - the leader in dumping heavy metals into our and the eagles water supply is fracking.

Do they use lead in fracking?

For years I heard that smoking was OK.
That big cars were best.
That seat belts didn't work.
That there is no global warming
That fluorocarbon weren't destroying the ozone.

Straw men. In each case science proved those myths wrong. Why are you choosing to dispute science now? It's almost like you're invested in lead ammo makers.

I still suspect this article may not be the real story. I just checked and lead is commonly used in fracking. It's listed as one of the 6 known worst chemicals used.

[Ulysses]

I still suspect this article may not be the real story. I just checked and lead is commonly used in fracking. It's listed as one of the 6 known worst chemicals used.

Yes, lead is a contaminant from fracking.

How Fracking Has Contaminated Drinking Water

The risk to drinking water comes in two major ways. First, water used in the hydraulic drilling process can leak into aquifers and other groundwater supplies. Second, the wastewater that fracking produces can contaminate supplies when waste leaks from landfills that accept oil remains, when waste spills from trucks or pipelines moving it, when equipment fails, or when waste leaks from unlined disposal pits.

Both flowback and produced water may contain (PDF) heavy metals such as barium and lead (PDF), hydrocarbons, naturally occurring radioactive material, and incredibly high levels of salinity. Flowback and produced wastewater can also include chemical additive formulas, with volatile organic compounds (VOCs) such as benzene, ethylene glycol, methanol, and toluene. Between 2005 and 2013, the EPA identified 1,084 chemicals reported in fracking formulas.

...

A pipeline rupture in 2014 spilled a million gallons of wastewater on the Fort Berthold Reservation and contaminated Bear Den Bay in Lake Sakakawea, a quarter-mile from where the town of Mandaree draws its drinking water. Bill Suess, the program manager for spill investigation at the North Dakota Department of Environmental Quality, says his team checked the intake system and didn’t find any elevated levels of contaminants, probably because of the amount of freshwater in the lake.

Avner Vengosh, a professor of earth and ocean sciences at Duke University, led a study in 2016 that found elevated levels of fracking-related contaminants in North Dakota at sites including Bear Den Bay. The researchers detected high levels of salts, ammonium, selenium, lead, and other toxic substances, as well as radium, a naturally occurring radioactive element found in wastewater as many as four years after original spills. The team checked the Mandaree water intake as well, Vengosh says, but did not find any elevated levels.

[Vrede too]

I still suspect this article may not be the real story. I just checked and lead is commonly used in fracking. It's listed as one of the 6 known worst chemicals used.

Okay, good to know, thanks. Fuck fracking even more than before. Still, fracking's footprint spans a small portion of the nation, and it pollutes more groundwater than surface water. I can't see it poisoning half or more of our eagles.

[billy.pilgrim]

I still suspect this article may not be the real story. I just checked and lead is commonly used in fracking. It's listed as one of the 6 known worst chemicals used.

Okay, good to know, thanks. Fuck fracking even more than before. Still, fracking's footprint spans a small portion of the nation, and it pollutes more groundwater than surface water. I can't see it poisoning half or more of our eagles.

I don't understand what's going on. I agree that lead shot should be stopped.
https://youtu.be/jhyaYYgc5zs
but there's been such a huge reduction in consumer caused lead pollution over the past 40 years, including lead shot pellets, that its hard for me to accept this explanation for lead poisoned eagles.
As a contributing factor - absolutely.
The primary cause of something new happening to the eagles after their recent comeback must also be something new - like fracking.
Don't pollutants from fracking into ground water find their way into fresh water streams and rivers and then into fresh water fish? Eagles are huge fish eaters.

Aren't the examples in the article from the Midwest? (If I remember correctly) If so, then you are right about field dressing introducing lead to the food supply there. But even then, wouldn't feeding on offal be a bigger problem for buzzards and coyotes rather than eagles who mostly catch live prey?
Field dressing is rare in the South and likely the entire East. Roads and cars are just too close. You've probably seen pictures and even scenes in movies where Bubbas drive around with an undressed deer strapped across the hot hood of a car or truck.

I think that the quicker we eliminate lead shot, the closer we'll be to identifying the real cause. My uneducated guess is that it won't be lead shot. Since it's already been reduced, why this uptick?

Bush removed fracking from any clean water oversight regulations. Obama and Biden seem to love how it makes their economy look. The mainstream media mostly ignores it. It appears here to stay and it will cause great harm the environment and as happened with DDT, the large birds of prey will go first while the industry blames others with paid "scientific" report after financed fake sciency report.

Until then, we all have only our opinions.