Not defending what, why, or how they did it back then, but I'm not sure I have a problem with the concept of convict leasing overall. How much worse could it be than spending every day being Big Bubba's bitch in some place like Angola or any number of other cruel and de-humanizing places.
I disagree. There's way too much room for kickbacks, graft, beatings, brutality, theft, ...
If you oppose private prisons, this has to be worse.
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”
Not defending what, why, or how they did it back then, but I'm not sure I have a problem with the concept of convict leasing overall. How much worse could it be than spending every day being Big Bubba's bitch in some place like Angola or any number of other cruel and de-humanizing places.
I disagree. There's way too much room for kickbacks, graft, beatings, brutality, theft, ...
If you oppose private prisons, this has to be worse.
Plus, as with private prisons convict leasing becomes an incentive to fill the prisons and keep them that way.
Was convict leasing mentioned in your WaPo article? I might have missed it.
Not as young as 4, but I took my niece and nephew to Andersonville.
I took my kid at 7. He still talks about it. Too bad that you can't see Camp Douglas. At least Andersonville was warmer.
From Wikipedia
After a successful tunneling escape on December 3, Colonel DeLand ordered all floors torn out of barracks, to be replaced by dirt even with the floor joist.[115] This resulted in conditions that increased sickness and mortality.[115] The garrison also tore out partitions in the barracks.[115] DeLand confiscated warm coats, possibly to prevent escapes but as likely in retaliation for past escapes and attempts.[115] On December 17, 1863, the prison camp officials closed the barber shop and newsstand, and stopped sales of stamps, envelopes and writing paper, likely also in retaliation for the major escape attempt.[116] When Sergeant-Major Oscar Cliett of the 55th Georgia Infantry Regiment reported to DeLand that his men rejected an offer of amnesty if they joined the Union Navy because they could not swim, DeLand had him placed in the dungeon for twenty-one days.[116] Despite these harsh actions, DeLand also worked to free fifty underage prisoners who he discovered were between the ages of 14 and 17[117] The Army did not free them.[117]
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”
Not defending what, why, or how they did it back then, but I'm not sure I have a problem with the concept of convict leasing overall. How much worse could it be than spending every day being Big Bubba's bitch in some place like Angola or any number of other cruel and de-humanizing places.
I disagree. There's way too much room for kickbacks, graft, beatings, brutality, theft, ...
If you oppose private prisons, this has to be worse.
I oppose private prisons largely because I oppose privatization of anything that should be all rights be a governmental function. As soon as you privatize something it becomes profit-driven, which often works to the detriment of the public. On the other hand, I don't object to a public-private partnership or public entities contracting with private firms for various services. F'rinstance, as long as the government sets and enforces the standards and makes the hiring decisions, I don't have a problem with contracting with Manpower to do the recruiting and screening.
There are a lot of people in prisons for non-violent crimes, and maybe we could argue over whether they should be there at all, but nevertheless they are there. A lot of those people have skills, or could learn skills, that would keep them being and feeling to themselves a continuing part of society. Work release people generally do better when they get out than those who've been inside their whole term. Solitary confinement people do the worst. There are a lot of mutual benefits that could come from a reasonably well run leasing program. It's not like prisoner's lives are all rosy now.
Not defending what, why, or how they did it back then, but I'm not sure I have a problem with the concept of convict leasing overall. How much worse could it be than spending every day being Big Bubba's bitch in some place like Angola or any number of other cruel and de-humanizing places.
I disagree. There's way too much room for kickbacks, graft, beatings, brutality, theft, ...
If you oppose private prisons, this has to be worse.
I oppose private prisons largely because I oppose privatization of anything that should be all rights be a governmental function. As soon as you privatize something it becomes profit-driven, which often works to the detriment of the public. On the other hand, I don't object to a public-private partnership or public entities contracting with private firms for various services. F'rinstance, as long as the government sets and enforces the standards and makes the hiring decisions, I don't have a problem with contracting with Manpower to do the recruiting and screening.
There are a lot of people in prisons for non-violent crimes, and maybe we could argue over whether they should be there at all, but nevertheless they are there. A lot of those people have skills, or could learn skills, that would keep them being and feeling to themselves a continuing part of society. Work release people generally do better when they get out than those who've been inside their whole term. Solitary confinement people do the worst. There are a lot of mutual benefits that could come from a reasonably well run leasing program. It's not like prisoner's lives are all rosy now.
I would agree, except that I can't imagine anyone involved in our prison Industry creating a non-abusive system for contracting labor.
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”
I would agree, except that I can't imagine anyone involved in our prison Industry creating a non-abusive system for contracting labor.
I wouldn't expect non-abusive, just less abusive or at least abusive-neutral. Although there are exceptions, such as the low-security Martha Stewart type places, most prisons are cruel de-humanizing psycho-producing factories. And there might be improvements ("reform") from time to time but the underlying theory that people who violate most any law should be locked away isn't going to allow for long-term change. And there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Some states take pride in their "toughness." But that shouldn't stop others from being creative.
I wouldn't expect non-abusive, just less abusive or at least abusive-neutral. Although there are exceptions, such as the low-security Martha Stewart type places, most prisons are cruel de-humanizing psycho-producing factories. And there might be improvements ("reform") from time to time but the underlying theory that people who violate most any law should be locked away isn't going to allow for long-term change. And there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Some states take pride in their "toughness." But that shouldn't stop others from being creative.
Wouldn't a lot of leased convicts still live in the prisons, and what do you say to people complaining about jobs with real wages being stolen?
Wouldn't a lot of leased convicts still live in the prisons, and what do you say to people complaining about jobs with real wages being stolen?
Yes, but as has been demonstrated IRL, living in prison at night and going out to work during the day is better than 24-hour incarceration.
I would ignore them unless they wanted to trade lives with the prisoner. They're probably the same people that complain about all the migrants taking jobs away from caucasians. Every time I pass a field with a bunch of immigrants working, I look for the lines of caucasians wanting those jobs and can't seem to ever find any.
... what do you say to people complaining about jobs with real wages being stolen?
... I would ignore them unless they wanted to trade lives with the prisoner. They're probably the same people that complain about all the migrants taking jobs away from caucasians. Every time I pass a field with a bunch of immigrants working, I look for the lines of caucasians wanting those jobs and can't seem to ever find any.
Not just caucasian workers would be replaced.
Assuming the program is voluntary lest it run afoul of slavery law, leased convicts won't agree to field work, either.
... what do you say to people complaining about jobs with real wages being stolen?
... I would ignore them unless they wanted to trade lives with the prisoner. They're probably the same people that complain about all the migrants taking jobs away from caucasians. Every time I pass a field with a bunch of immigrants working, I look for the lines of caucasians wanting those jobs and can't seem to ever find any.
Not just caucasian workers would be replaced.
Assuming the program is voluntary lest it run afoul of slavery law, leased convicts won't agree to field work, either.
I don't think I mentioned voluntary, except it wouldn't be any good to put people in the program who didn't want to be there. But it's not voluntary to make licence plates, nor work in the prison laundry or kitchen. It's not voluntary to work on litter pickup. Good performance in a lease job could reduce the total sentence, maybe they could keep the job when they got out. Good outcomes.
I don't think I mentioned voluntary, except it wouldn't be any good to put people in the program who didn't want to be there. But it's not voluntary to make licence plates, nor work in the prison laundry or kitchen. It's not voluntary to work on litter pickup. Good performance in a lease job could reduce the total sentence, maybe they could keep the job when they got out. Good outcomes.
I suspect that there are differences in law between prison work like laundry or kitchen, state work like license plates or litter pickup and the very different renting out of involuntary labor to private entities, but idk. Wouldn't we call it slavery if other nations (China>Apple?) did it? I'm sure that convicts will like a voluntary program, including ones that want to escape or want access to drugs and other contraband, but I'm not convinced that it's good public policy, for the reasons billy.pilgrim and I have listed.
I don't think I mentioned voluntary, except it wouldn't be any good to put people in the program who didn't want to be there. But it's not voluntary to make licence plates, nor work in the prison laundry or kitchen. It's not voluntary to work on litter pickup. Good performance in a lease job could reduce the total sentence, maybe they could keep the job when they got out. Good outcomes.
I suspect that there are differences in law between prison work like laundry or kitchen, state work like license plates or litter pickup and the very different renting out of involuntary labor to private entities, but idk. Wouldn't we call it slavery if other nations (China>Apple?) did it? I'm sure that convicts will like a voluntary program, including ones that want to escape or want access to drugs and other contraband, but I'm not convinced that it's good public policy, for the reasons billy.pilgrim and I have listed.
Laboring outside worked great for Everett, Pete and Delmar
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”
Well, look, I didn't set out to be a strong proponent of convict leasing, and it may be a terrible idea. But as in so many other things, I don't think that the risk of some challenges should mean tossing the whole idea. That's the same thinking the anti-gun people have - if you can't totally eliminate any shootings, then the law must be no good. And you can't eliminate every government program just because some may engage in fraud or theft (right, Senator Scott?)
Real life example of something approaching "leasing" is the California program using inmates as firefighters. Been generally successful for years, but ironically up until relatively recently the well-trained inmates couldn't be hired as regular firefighters when they got out because of "no felons" limitations. That's apparently been mostly fixed.
Real life example of something approaching "leasing" is the California program using inmates as firefighters. Been generally successful for years, but ironically up until relatively recently the well-trained inmates couldn't be hired as regular firefighters when they got out because of "no felons" limitations. That's apparently been mostly fixed.
It's outside work, but like license plates or litter pickup it's state work, not "leasing". Wildfire fighting is somewhat unique in that it's sporadic. It would be expensive to keep all firefighters on payroll year round, but the inmates are always there.
Good to hear about the post-prison employment fix.
Real life example of something approaching "leasing" is the California program using inmates as firefighters. Been generally successful for years, but ironically up until relatively recently the well-trained inmates couldn't be hired as regular firefighters when they got out because of "no felons" limitations. That's apparently been mostly fixed.
It's outside work, but like license plates or litter pickup it's state work, not "leasing". Wildfire fighting is somewhat unique in that it's sporadic. It would be expensive to keep all firefighters on payroll year round, but the inmates are always there.
Good to hear about the post-prison employment fix.
Prison ranches and farms are successful, too.
Used to be sporadic I suppose, but now CalFire is going somewhere about all the time for 9-10 months of the year. "Fire season" is now pretty much all year long at least until or unless the drought is over.
Used to be sporadic I suppose, but now CalFire is going somewhere about all the time for 9-10 months of the year. "Fire season" is now pretty much all year long at least until or unless the drought is over.
That sucks, though I'll guess the numbers of firefighters needed still fluctuates.
Not as young as 4, but I took my niece and nephew to Andersonville.
Every anti-gunner I know aims to reduce the carnage by small amounts or large, whatever they can get. Examples?