The Religion Thread

[O Really]

That being said, for everyone here:

Do you think life has a purpose, does your life have a purpose, and does thinking about things bigger than you bring you to despair or make you happy?

Good question. I think life has no philosophical purpose other that whatever we believe it to be. We live in the physical world, but also in a mental world of our own creation. I personally don't have a problem recognizing that I'm a pretty small cog in the wheel, and that there are a lot of things in the universe I don't know and don't understand. But I don't give the unknown a human form and create a long list of rules that it likes or doesn't like, and I don't think anything I do in this life affects the afterlife, whatever - if anything - that might be.

[O Really]

I wasn't wearing a lucky t-shirt, hat, or rabbit's foot when my wife was in serious condition in the hospital and the doctor told me rather frankly that she may not survive. I honestly believe that the fervent prayers of my church family and myself brought her back...that was six years ago. Although she still has complications, I asked my "invisible friend" to just let us share together a few more years on this earth...He did, and I honestly believe He did.

.

Having had a similar experience, minus the prayers, I mean no disrespect, but don't you think God knew she was sick before everybody prayed? And what was He doing when she got sick? Does God control everything or not? Does he act by petition or vote? Why did He say, "OK" to your request and let the guy down the hallway die despite the prayers of his family?

[JTA]

...or your hamster get sucked up and obliterated in the vacuum cleaner...

Thanks for that image, I'll never look at hamsters or vacuum cleaners the same way again. Now, I am truly consumed with despair.

Circle of life, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwSKkKrUzUk&feature=kp

The majestic Siberian hamster succumbing to its natural predator: The fierce Chinese vacuum cleaner. Where are the animal planet documents?

[rstrong]

If it makes you happy, doesn't harm anyone else, and helps you get through the day with a positive attitude and helps give your life meaning and purpose then more power to you. You've found some stability that many people don't have nor will ever have. Sometimes the alternative (not necessarily though, of course) is feelings of despair and purposelessness, like you're floating around and counting down the time till your sentence is up. One of the things I find interesting and admirable about some of my Christian friends is their overall positive attitude toward many things that come at them in life, both good and bad. Even if I don't believe in the same things as them, and even if I knew for an absolute fact that there was no God or Gods or a higher purpose to life, and knew for a fact they were lying to themselves, they've still found an answer that gets them through the night and as far as I can tell, their answer harms no one and has an overall net positive contribution to others as well. I see nothing wrong or bad in their religious beliefs.

Well sure. And if the religious limited it to that, there would be little to criticize.

Unfortunately they have a habit of forcing their religion on others. Declaring a monopoly on deciding who can get married. Enslaving whole peoples to convert them to their religion. Forbidding others from visiting the drug store on their particular holy day. Flying passenger jetliners into buildings. Kidnapping others' children to be raised in their own religion. etc.

You've found some stability that many people don't have nor will ever have.

Likewise, many find stability by escaping the church.

Do you think life has a purpose, does your life have a purpose, and does thinking about things bigger than you bring you to despair or make you happy?

Absolutely, life has purpose. In vague terms it's "make the universe a better place."

To keep the religious theme, imagine building a cathedral. The cathedral may not be finished for another 200 years, any you're just one worker. But you can still take pride in your work, your contribution, knowing that you're building something great.

Building civilization, making life better for everyone, is like that. Contributing - raising your kids well and getting them an education. Even just writing an accounting system that improves a small part of the economy. Pushing for education and civil rights and freedoms.

[Mr.B]

"Why would he even send his daughter to the hospital in the first place if he believed in God?"

God gave each of us differing abilities as well as abilities to learn to differing levels. Just because I believe in God would not keep me from seeing a doctor; I can't repair my broken bones or heal my body's cancer if I was so afflicted....could you doctor your own ills?

In my working career I repaired home appliances, and I still can take many of them apart and put 'em back together blindfolded. I've been in homes where the homeowner had no idea which end of a screwdriver is used to turn a screw....however, their knowledge of their working past or present would leave me clueless. I don't know what type of work you do, but I'm willing to bet I couldn't do it. God gave a doctor a gift beyond measure. The ability to perform surgery and diagnose human ills takes much study, patience, and a special caring. I learned my trade "hands-on".....you don't do that to be a healer.

"Having had a similar experience, minus the prayers, I mean no disrespect, but don't you think God knew she was sick before everybody prayed? And what was He doing when she got sick? Does God control everything or not? Does he act by petition or vote? Why did He say, "OK" to your request and let the guy down the hallway die despite the prayers of his family?"

She had a serious accident in the home, and I have no idea what He was doing at the time, but by His power to heal, I would say, Yes...He is still in control.

God does not tell us why some are allowed to live and others die despite our prayers, petitions, or "votes". I can not even speculate the whys of that question; I just feel that my faith in Him was sufficient, and He honored that faith.

(Hebrews 11:1--faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.)

[rstrong]

I wasn't wearing a lucky t-shirt, hat, or rabbit's foot when my wife was in serious condition in the hospital and the doctor told me rather frankly that she may not survive. I honestly believe that the fervent prayers of my church family and myself brought her back...that was six years ago.

Organized religion is good at indoctrinating people; those people often have stronger faith then those who believe in their lucky t-shirt, hat, or rabbit's foot. But it's the same thing.

As far as the other religions or political ideologies that rstrong mentioned, I have no clue to their beliefs or convictions, nor need to.

For the most part, there's not much difference between yours and theirs. It boils down to "imaginary friend." "Santa Clause for adults." Had you been born in a different part of the world, you'd no doubt be praying to a different god and cherry-picking a different holy book to justify your beliefs.

rstrong once mentioned his furor over not finding a drugstore open on Sunday so as to obtain medication for his daughter. I can't help but wonder this scenario:
Suppose his daughter lay dying and the doctor told him there was no hope....would he just say "Oh well" and go on, or would he try any means possible to save his daughter....including prayer? I believe that God would have answered his prayer, despite his unbelief if he had been sincere in his prayer, and repentant.

I would try any means possible to save my daughter. I would not waste time with meaningless gestures like rubbing lucky rabbits' feet or rubbing beads or praying to Bastet or Zeus or Vishnu or whatever imaginary friend your folks recommend. I tried prayer when I was a kid. repeatedly. It's didn't work. I set the mythology aside just like I did with Santa and the tooth fairy, and concentrated on more practical methods. Just like I would for my daughter.

[rstrong]

Why would he even send his daughter to the hospital in the first place if he believed in God?

Good question.

[rstrong]

...Building civilization, making life better for everyone, is like that. Contributing - raising your kids well and getting them an education. Even just writing an accounting system that improves a small part of the economy. Pushing for education and civil rights and freedoms.

. . . fixing the damn computer.

. . . or vacuum cleaner.

Funny you should mention that. I replaced a hard drive today at the office. Since the PC was full of dust, I had to vacuum it out. But first I had to fix the vacuum cleaner.

[Bungalow Bill]

Christians were clever enough to come up with a heads I win, tails you lose
form of prayer. If one prays to God and that prayer is successful, well that
means God answered your prayer and granted your wish. But, what happens
when one prays to God and your wish is not granted? You can't say God was
found to be powerless. So it was God's will to not answer your prayer. Why
would He want to do that. Enter the idea that God works in mysterious ways
and that mere mortals cannot understand his workings. Whatever.

I doubt that people are thinking every day of their relatively humble place
in the scheme of things. Maybe once in a while, but most people are too
concerned with their immediate world of family and friends and everyday
life to worry very much about being a tiny part of a great big universe.

[bannination]

"Why would he even send his daughter to the hospital in the first place if he believed in God?"

God gave each of us differing abilities as well as abilities to learn to differing levels. Just because I believe in God would not keep me from seeing a doctor; I can't repair my broken bones or heal my body's cancer if I was so afflicted....could you doctor your own ills?

In my working career I repaired home appliances, and I still can take many of them apart and put 'em back together blindfolded. I've been in homes where the homeowner had no idea which end of a screwdriver is used to turn a screw....however, their knowledge of their working past or present would leave me clueless. I don't know what type of work you do, but I'm willing to bet I couldn't do it. God gave a doctor a gift beyond measure. The ability to perform surgery and diagnose human ills takes much study, patience, and a special caring. I learned my trade "hands-on".....you don't do that to be a healer.

....
That's a serious insult to those doctors that have worked their asses off attaining the skills to treat people.... what's even worse is when they do successfully cure someone, it's "thank god" not thank you for spending years of your life studying and working your ass off to have the knowledge to cure my friend.

[JTA]

...Building civilization, making life better for everyone, is like that. Contributing - raising your kids well and getting them an education. Even just writing an accounting system that improves a small part of the economy. Pushing for education and civil rights and freedoms.

. . . fixing the damn computer.

. . . or vacuum cleaner.

Funny you should mention that. I replaced a hard drive today at the office. Since the PC was full of dust, I had to vacuum it out. But first I had to fix the vacuum cleaner.

Was there a mummified hamster clogging it up?

[Wneglia]

....
That's a serious insult to those doctors that have worked their asses off attaining the skills to treat people.... what's even worse is when they do successfully cure someone, it's "thank god" not thank you for spending years of your life studying and working your ass off to have the knowledge to cure my friend.

I think it is appropriate to thank God for healing. I have been blessed beyond belief during my 40+ years of medical practice and I thank God every day for giving me the talents and the abilities that I possess, and I ask for guidance, wisdom, and forgiveness if I fail. I feel that I am His servant, expected to do my best to help people. Can prayer heal? I believe so, and pray for my patients often.

All of us have different talents that are indispensable to society. I have great respect for the work of others, no matter how menial it may seem to some.

[bannination]

[Mr.B]

You hear only what you want to hear...? It works both ways.

[Mr.B]

"That's a serious insult to those doctors that have worked their asses off attaining the skills to treat people.... what's even worse is when they do successfully cure someone, it's "thank god" not thank you for spending years of your life studying and working your ass off to have the knowledge to cure my friend."

That's exactly what I mean...God gave them the patience to persevere, and the desire to help others despite the long hours and years of their lives spent in perfecting their skills. I've heard the "thank Gods" too, but the "thank you Doctors" were far outnumbering.

"I think it is appropriate to thank God for healing. I have been blessed beyond belief during my 40+ years of medical practice and I thank God every day for giving me the talents and the abilities that I possess, and I ask for guidance, wisdom, and forgiveness if I fail. I feel that I am His servant, expected to do my best to help people. Can prayer heal? I believe so, and pray for my patients often.

All of us have different talents that are indispensable to society. I have great respect for the work of others, no matter how menial it may seem to some."

I'm proud to hear you say that Doc! (although I've suspected you had a caring heart all along!) I've known many doctors in my lifetime; and I've seen many of them pray with a patient before going into surgery, serious or minor. I've known doctors that pray with their patients while visiting them in recovery. It's good to know that a doctor realizes he can only do what the Lord has given him the knowledge to do.

I thought of Vrede while reading this thread......here's a person with a compassionate heart for those in need of medical care; and not only that, but a caring heart for those who are discriminated against, the downtrodden, and even the eroding condition of our planet. I know God instills those traits in an individual, and it's sad to see Him blasphemed and ridiculed as He is by someone who God has so blessed. Who knows...? Maybe one day Vrede will travel down that "Damascus Road".

Only God knows.

[Mr.B]

"Your words have as little effect on me...."

I didn't expect them to, I was merely giving praise where I felt praise was due.

[Boatrocker]

"You (probably) classify me as an atheist, (though) I consider myself an agnostic."

Someone who doesn't believe there's a Heaven, but hopes there's no Hell?

Someone who looks for sign or evidence, beyond that stuff written in some collection of letters and screeds and rants and soft porn that purports to be dictated by God. Someone who can't claim to really know, but would really like to know.

ag·nos·tic [ag-nos-tik noun

1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. Synonyms: disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever; doubter, skeptic, secularist, empiricist; heathen, heretic, infidel, pagan.

2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

3. a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic: Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

adjective

4. of or pertaining to agnostics or their doctrines, attitudes, or beliefs.

5. asserting the uncertainty of all claims to knowledge.

6. holding neither of two opposing positions: If you take an agnostic view of technology, then it becomes clear that your decisions to implement one solution or another should be driven by need.

[JTA]

Your argument. I couldn't tell you myself, I've never sought the advice or direction of your aforementioned.

If it makes you happy, doesn't harm anyone else, and helps you get through the day with a positive attitude and helps give your life meaning and purpose then more power to you. You've found some stability that many people don't have nor will ever have. Sometimes the alternative (not necessarily though, of course) is feelings of despair and purposelessness, like you're floating around and counting down the time till your sentence is up. One of the things I find interesting and admirable about some of my Christian friends is their overall positive attitude toward many things that come at them in life, both good and bad. Even if I don't believe in the same things as them, and even if I knew for an absolute fact that there was no God or Gods or a higher purpose to life, and knew for a fact they were lying to themselves, they've still found an answer that gets them through the night and as far as I can tell, their answer harms no one and has an overall net positive contribution to others as well. I see nothing wrong or bad in their religious beliefs.

That being said, for everyone here:

Do you think life has a purpose, does your life have a purpose, and does thinking about things bigger than you bring you to despair or make you happy?

I totally agree with that. The only problems I have with it is when they try to force their beliefs on the rest of us through laws or what have you, usually with a very negative result.

Life's purpose is simply to live long enough to reproduce, in a very clinical definition. There's really not much more to the purpose of life from an outside observer. In reality, life doesn't have to have a purpose for me to enjoy it. There are amazing things we can all do to help to make each others lives better, and I think (organized) religion - a lot of times but not all - has the opposite goal. I think that knowing you have only one shot to get it right makes you a much much better person. You can't simply ask forgiveness every time you do something wrong, and you can't rely on an external force to help other people (or yourself), we have to help other people and ourselves.

*Admitting the bias that religion had a *extremely* negative effect on my life, from which I've probably still not recovered from and I've seen too many others in similar situations.

BTW, Mr. B - it's been proven that being prayed for in medical circumstances statistically leads to worse outcomes. It's theorized the patients believe they are in much worse condition than they actually are and that tends to affect the body.

I agree with you on pretty much all of your points. I think if you deconstruct life down you'll find that almost everything is a result of our most basic drives - sex and violence (power). Man is more savvy than other organisms and because of that has concocted some pretty complex means of achieving and maintaining power, religion to some extent being one method, although I don't think religion is solely a means of control and has other uses depending on the individual who adheres to said religion... but control is certainly one of them. Regardless of the method, you're going to have individuals work any type of system to achieve power and influence. It's in our nature.

I do however think religion when moderated is a net gain. My personal belief is that many can't handle life without religion. I think some need certain degrees of religion whereas others don't need religion at all. What stops you and I from going all Attilla the hun on the neighboring towns and stealing their women and corn dogs? For me it's empathy and knowledge of right and wrong. Religion was used as a means to convey teachings of right and wrong to me as a kid, but what these stories along with other life lessons ultimately taught me was was how to feel empathy for others and what altruism is. Empathy is one of the drives (among others) that keeps me in line, not threat of damnation or reward of heaven. For others, religion may be one of the few things that keeps them in check.

Some people will point out that people aren't truly moral if they need the threat of hell or reward of heaven to motivate them into doing right from wrong. I think this observation is correct to a certain degree. I think there's a very thin line that separates empathetic individuals from many who only function on more animalistic impulses, jumping from pleasure to pleasure. What's the only thing keeping a good many people in check as things stand right now? Empathy for some. These individuals would be able to operate and wouldn't revert to predation in the absence of law and order. For many others, the law and threat if imprisonment keeps them in check. In the absence of a power structure (government) to keep them in check, some would revert to violence and predation. Another line of defense is religious beliefs and the notion God the omnipresent father in -organized- religion. If you take God and place him within, then you're in for some scary stuff. If there's some structure there to "control" the idea of God, then you've got some defense against crazed individuals and extremists taking God and turning it into something evil (crashing planes into buildings, torturing witches).

It's tricky though, because like I said the more savvy and intelligent individuals know how to move within these power structures to mete out control and influence. Who's to say some of these leaders of these giant church-stadiums aren't in fact atheists? Doesn't matter either way. The politician who harps on about religion and family values to gain votes? The CEO of some large company? These guys want power and influence and they have it. They have a structure in which they can achieve power (religion, government, business). How we project power is up to us. Do you project it internally or externally?

Why do people who have more money that you could ever hope to spend in ten lifetimes keep going? Power!

[rstrong]

Oklahoma GOP candidate endorses stoning gays to death, because the Bible commands it

'We would be totally in the right to do it,' Scott Esk wrote on Facebook

That beard of his has clearly been trimmed in violation of the same laws. We're gonna need more stones.

[rstrong]