Veteran Day

[billy.pilgrim]

...2nd lie - yes the US was wrong it viet nam - we supported a dictator over a legitimate democratically elected government...

I thought it was that we supported a dictator and prevented the S. Vietnam election from taking place. Are we remembering different events?

we did support the corrupt dictator

and you are right, Ike did back diem in breaking the treaty, cancelling the election in the south and starting the American/Viet nam war - all because diem would have lost his sorry ass and we have never appreciated democracy when it doesn't go our way

great example of another Ike blunder and conservation lies about history is iran

we continue to hear about how the people of the middle east have never understood democracy, but we ignore Ike overthrowing democracy in iran and installing the brutal dictatorship of the shah

[billy.pilgrim]

Could it be that you are lying about my comment to you to bolster your idiotic right wing bs about the poor treatment of viet nam vets

What about the right's poor treatment of Iraq and Afghanistan vets, what with Bush and McCain voting against increases in VA services even though the number of cases of PTSD and suicides was skyrocketing?

What about the Pub who just a month ago put an anonymous hold on a senate bill to increase the COLA for VA benefits. What about the 40 Pubs, a couple of weeks earlier, who managed to stop a jobs bill for veterans that was completely paid for with cuts from other departments. Veterans pay for the Pubs determination to keep Obama from passing any legislation.

but they gave them a parade, according to farfromreality, that's what matters

[billy.pilgrim]

Reality, go show your bullship account to this guy. he spent years trying to document the lie about vets being spit on and he failed to find a single incident

except from people like you, who use lies to promote what the truth can't

The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam
jerry Lembcke
One of the most resilient images of the Vietnam era is that of the anti-war protester — often a woman — spitting on the uniformed veteran just off the plane. The lingering potency of this icon was evident during the Gulf War, when war supporters invoked it to discredit their opposition.
In this startling book, Jerry Lembcke demonstrates that not a single incident of this sort has been convincingly documented. Rather, the anti-war Left saw in veterans a natural ally, and the relationship between anti-war forces and most veterans was defined by mutual support. Indeed one soldier wrote angrily to Vice President Spiro Agnew that the only Americans who seemed concerned about the soldier's welfare were the anti-war activists.
While the veterans were sometimes made to feel uncomfortable about their service, this sense of unease was, Lembcke argues, more often rooted in the political practices of the Right. Tracing a range of conflicts in the twentieth century, the book illustrates how regimes engaged in unpopular conflicts often vilify their domestic opponents for "stabbing the boys in the back."
Concluding with an account of the powerful role played by Hollywood in cementing the myth of the betrayed veteran through such films as Coming Home, Taxi Driver, and Rambo, Jerry Lembcke's book stands as one of the most important, original, and controversial works of cultural history in recent years.

[Bungalow Bill]

It's good to know that the U.S. has a steady supply of arrogant and empty headed Ugly
Americans, so we have no worries on that score. The best place to watch the failing
shenanigans of the U.S. imperilistas is right here in a ring side seat. I wouldn't miss it
for the world. While some were busy fighting in Vietnam or protesting it, I was hard at
work with pick ax and shovel on the Ho Chi Minh trail, day in and day out. Was all that
hard work worth it? Hell yes.

[Stinger]

Could it be that you are lying about my comment to you to bolster your idiotic right wing bs about the poor treatment of viet nam vets

What about the right's poor treatment of Iraq and Afghanistan vets, what with Bush and McCain voting against increases in VA services even though the number of cases of PTSD and suicides was skyrocketing?

What about the Pub who just a month ago put an anonymous hold on a senate bill to increase the COLA for VA benefits. What about the 40 Pubs, a couple of weeks earlier, who managed to stop a jobs bill for veterans that was completely paid for with cuts from other departments. Veterans pay for the Pubs determination to keep Obama from passing any legislation.

but they gave them a parade, according to farfromreality, that's what matters

And they wave a lot of flags.

And then they disrespect and insult veterans by refusing to pay for adequate care for the ailments they incurred fighting the wars the Republicans sent them to.

[homerfobe]

kma

reckon I answered everybody

Yes you did; in the proud, arrogant manner typical of a left-wing asshole. I'm sure you are so proud of yourself; your mama and kids, if you were man enough to have any, would be proud of you as well.

it took a lot of courage to leave family and country, to go to prison or even to live life on the run. yes these brave men were protesting the war and yes these brave men did save many lives by bringing the war to an earlier close
but you would know anything about the courage it takes to stand up for your beliefs or to stand against an illegal immoral war
I evaded the draft as most of the middle class did - college deferment

So you got a college deferment, what liberal news media in Canada, where you bravely fled to, did you go to work for?
It took braver men and women to leave family and country and go to a foreign country to fight for other's freedoms; whether they believed in the war effort or not. Your hairball-types sat around and sucked pot while bemoaning a feigned attitude of anti-war sentiment, while the real men and women sat smoking pot to relieve the fears and tensions of knowing they may not live to see tomorrow, or that the next war-torn victim will be a buddy.

No, we all didn't agree with the war in Vietnam, but we went, most unwillingly, in hopes that in some small way, what we were doing would benefit others. We lost. But the point is, we tried. We bravely tried.

[Wneglia]

So BP applauds those who ran away. Figures.

Of course BP thinks all of those who went next door to la la land were protesting the war. I'm thinking most went because they were, still are, chicken sh**!

it took a lot of courage to leave family and country, to go to prison or even to live life on the run. yes these brave men were protesting the war and yes these brave men did save many lives by bringing the war to an earlier close

but you would know anything about the courage it takes to stand up for your beliefs or to stand against an illegal immoral war


I evaded the draft as most of the middle class did - college deferment

The draft board in my town had a hard-on for me and would not honor my college deferment. In the summer between graduation from college and start of medical school, I received a draft notice, and my protests to the draft board were ignored. When I went for my induction physical, I fortunately had with me my documentation of medical school enrollment as well as x-rays of my arm which had been severely injured in a bicycle accident, requiring multiple surgeries, and leaving me with limited range of motion. The examining physician looked up the regs, measured my motion, and stamped me 4F which was an unbelievable relief, as I would then be able to go to medical school as planned. In my third year of medical school I enlisted and was accepted into the Army and wound up spending 9 years of active duty. The physical requirements for physicians at time were much more lax, and physicians didn't have to go through basic training, which would have been impossible for me as I could not do pushups with my screwed up arm. Funny how things eventually work out. I never have thought of my service in the same light as combat veterans who risked their lives, their bodies, and their psyches in ways I cannot even fathom.

[Reality]

Thanks WG.

Bungalow, you and Jane Fonda big buds?

So BP, what part of Canada did you retreat to or are you even old enough to have experienced the Vietnem era?

...and BP, apparently the jury is still out on instances of spitting on vets.

Obama takes sides in the 'spitting on vets' debate

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/30 ... s-20120530

Apparently the author of the link you provided doesn't think spitting happened because he could not find a documented case of such. Apparently there are those who think otherwise.

[billy.pilgrim]

Thanks WG.

Bungalow, you and Jane Fonda big buds?

So BP, what part of Canada did you retreat to or are you even old enough to have experienced the Vietnem era?

...and BP, apparently the jury is still out on instances of spitting on vets.

Obama takes sides in the 'spitting on vets' debate

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/30 ... s-20120530

Apparently the author of the link you provided doesn't think spitting happened because he could not find a documented case of such. Apparently there are those who think otherwise.

college deferment (I heard some flunked out and lost theirs) until high lotto number in 1970 kicked in

my trips to Canada were more of a ferry service

and apparently you took an old myth and tried to take credit for it happening to you

[billy.pilgrim]

...and apparently you took an old myth and tried to take credit for it happening to you

Yep, it was the clear implication:

...Were you in all the ports of entry when those that survived came home? I passed through San Francisco on my way home in Septemebr 1966. Were you there?...

Sleazy as always, even in a "Veteran" Day thread.

kinda funny that his own post about the myth exposes him as just another liar who perpetrated the myth


I did see non-military pro-war idiots throw insults at vets protesting the war

[Leo Lyons]

No, we all didn't agree with the war in Vietnam, but we went, most unwillingly, in hopes that in some small way, what we were doing would benefit others. We lost. But the point is, we tried. We bravely tried.

Well said Homer. Looks as though the 'assholes' agree with you.
Something akin to "I'd rather be a live chicken than a dead hero" comes to mind.

My hat and heartfelt thanks thanks to all our Veterans, even to the Peace Corps who dug the Ho Chi Minh trail.

[Bungalow Bill]

I don't want to name drop, but back in the day Jane and I were pretty close comrades.
Fridays nights after work on the HCMT I'd hitch a ride to Hanoi and help her get on and
off the anti-aircraft gun. Nobody had anything to worry about because without her
contacts, she's as blind as a bat. Then we'd head over to the hotel and exchange some
bodily fluids, you know that old from each, to each thing. We're were having a hell of
a time until one night when, after our The German Ideology study group, I told her
that her shag cut really didn't do anything for her. Well, she threw one heck of a hissy
fit, you know how these Hollywood stars are, and that really put an end to our relation-
ship. It was fun while it lasted, but it was just one of those things.

[Stinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNPUpkbxT38

[Stinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj1FCkn0 ... re=related

[O Really]

There are a lot of heros, and a lot of people risked and gave their lives for noble causes. A lot also just put in their two or four or twenty years and moved on. Let's don't forget the difference.

And I'm one of the latter. I did my (military) job, and I did it well. It wasn't any different from any other job I've held, and I'm not a hero for it. I respect our warriors, but just because one was in the service doesn't make them special.

[mike]

...I'm sure you are so proud of yourself; your mama and kids, if you were man enough to have any, would be proud of you as well.

The only measure of a "man," in your mind, is the ability to father children? ... interesting.

Also, I have yet to see a man that "had" a kid. You know, like, actually giving birth to one?

You've picked the right pseudonym for your presented name, homerfobe.

It's only a matter of time before your kind is died off and gone, homerphobe.

@Bill: Seriously? I'm jealous, you

This is, indeed, an interesting thread. It was dead for more than a day before I posted Aaron Mankin's testimony ... then it blew up yet again.

As a reminder, for all our veterans:

OK, here goes ... if you haven't seen it, now you have ...



Much respect for Aaron Mankin ... and all veterans of all wars (right or not)

[billy.pilgrim]

I also have a lot of respect for our service men and women, but I stop somewhere way before the word "all"
I reserve some respect for all people until I know differently, same for those in the military.

all this bullshit about homeland and the best and brightest and all that bush cheerleader crap has made it difficult for legitimate discussion of what we are doing now and has led to the same crap passing for history in viet nam and like all this right wing revisionist history it leaves out the facts.

people served for a myriad of reasons, some honorable some not. had a real discussion about that war been ongoing, we may have never been tricked into going into afghanistan or iraq, but instead, we have puppets like homer who went to vietnam and still, to this day, he thinks he was fighting for some one's freedom

I felt a lot of respect for people like homer when he was there - they were doing what their country told them to do, but there has been enough time for them to educate themselves about why we fought that war - continuing to push the lie that we fought to free others is the biggest shame of that war and is a vanity that will continue to kill Americans

I have no respect for (what was his name) medina - capt medina, I think it was. he was not an isolated punk and he deserves only contempt

[mike]

Agreed, billy. Still, there are those. like Mankin, who serve.

Our vitriol should be reserved for those who start the wars. Not those who serve in them.
Indeed, there are exceptions but Mankin, and many others, are not among them (those deserving of the vitriol).

I still say, respect!

[mike]

...Our vitriol should be reserved for those who start the wars. Not those who serve in them...

We're discussing the same issue but with different players over here:

http://blueridgedebate.com/phpBB3/viewt ... +mix#p8719

It's not like it's a secret what our civil and military leadership has done to other nations and to its own soldiers over and over.

Agreed, Vrede.
Don't blame the soldiers (really, celebrate them - though there are a few who shouldn't be celebrated) but, by and large, those who sign up and get deployed to the latest neo-con war still deserve our respect.

I will stand by them all the while I vilify those who start the wars.

[Reality]

Vred, I want waste my time and waste forum members time by answering your questions because I get no satisfaction from you knowing the truth about me. Obiously anything I say is irrelevant to you because you target someone and twist what they say to satisfy your perversions. You've done the same to others who do not support and agree with what you have to say.

You, like many others who give excuses for not serving their country, especially Vietnam, are envious of those that did but that's okay. The good General Poulus said it best.

Come With Me To Macedonia

Commanders should be counseled chiefly by persons of known talent, by those who have made the act of war their particular study, and whose knowledge is derived from experience, by those who are present at the scene of action, who see the enemy, who see the advantage that occasions offer, and who, like people embarked in the same ships, are sharers of the same danger.

If therefore, anyone thinks himself qualified to give advice respecting the war which I am to conduct, let him not refuse his assistance to the state, but let him come with me to Macedonia.

He shall be furnished with a ship, a tent, even his traveling charges will be deferred, but if he thinks this too much trouble, and prefers the repose of city life to the torts of war, let him not on land assume the office of pilot. The city in itself furnishes an abundance of topics for conversation; let it confines its passion for talking to its own precincts, and rest assured that we shall pay no attention any councils but such as shall be formed within our camp.

General Lucious Poulus
Rome, 168 B.C.