Corporal Punishment

[billy.pilgrim]

some people just palin and simple don't need to be in charge of kids


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... =DDMorning

[Mr.B]

I watched a Yahoo news video where a reporter was covering the Spring Break at Panama City beach....she asked one young girl "How do you think your parents would react to seeing you and these other young women here living it up in such abandon?"
The young woman replied "F*** my parents!". Obviously she was from a warm loving home where she was taught respect and love for her parents as well as others around her.

[Mr.B]

"Nothing teaches "respect and love" like violence."

You and your ilk screech and whine that corporal punishment is "violence"; so you, as a parent that's well-rounded and experienced in child rearing, tell us how is the best way to deal with a child that is unruly or hateful or disrespectful or thieving or lying and/or bullying? This ought'a be good......go.

It's easy to sit back and say it ought to be done this way or that way; or the book says the same, but until you've "been there, done that" you ain't got a clue. There's parents that have never spanked their kids, or have never been spanked themselves... 99% of the time, it's evident.

[Mr.B]

So, in your irrelevant opinion, it's perfectly OK for a child to be unruly or hateful or disrespectful or thieving or lying and/or bullying.

Got it.

[O Really]

So, in your irrelevant opinion, it's perfectly OK for a child to be unruly or hateful or disrespectful or thieving or lying and/or bullying.

Got it.

I don't know that anybody said that. Why do you think beating is the only available or effective response to "unruly..." etc.?

[neoplacebo]

So, in your irrelevant opinion, it's perfectly OK for a child to be unruly or hateful or disrespectful or thieving or lying and/or bullying.

Got it.

I don't know that anybody said that. Why do you think beating is the only available or effective response to "unruly..." etc.?

I was famously unruly as a child and also as a young adult, got my ass whipped by my mom as a boy, paddled in school by the teachers, and a couple of times as an adult engaging in non adult types of behavior. In all of that, I can say that the first time one gets his ass whipped, it tends to impart a perspective that was not previously in the realm of experience. But after that initial ass whipping, no further insight can be gleaned from it, and it can only be considered something to be avoided.

[O Really]

Read any study, by anybody, about the psychological effect on an adult of being physically (or emotionally) abused by someone they trust and love. Then come back and explain why the effect should be different on a child, just because we euphemistically call the physical abuse "spanking" or "discipline."

[Mr.B]

In my 30+ years of going in people's homes, I've seen the difference in "beaten" children and "unbeaten children".
(for the whiners, that's disciplined and undisciplined)

I've seen kids spit at/on their parents, throw things, including food, in the floor, tell their parents to "do it yourself", "I don't want to", "so what?", etc....and I'm not talking just about teenagers, but kids as young as 4 years old. The parent's reply usually was something like, "you get no candy", "get out of my sight", or worse..."what am I going to do with you?" These are the ones who grow up to curse at or assault their teachers, defy authority, post their stupid "I've got my rights" videos on YouTube when they're pulled over for a traffic violation.
And, lastly, there is a vast difference in attitudes of kids raised in a Christian home vs. a home that's non-Christian. Say what you will about this last part; I'm speaking from OTJ experience, not opinion.

Any of those scenarios would have been preventable long ago with a belt or switch (tree limb for the whiners). Action speaks louder than words.

I've heard it said many times by people, including myself, that they were grateful that their parent(s) gave them a good a** whipping when they needed it, rather than let them get by with any and everything.

[Mr.B]

So, in your irrelevant opinion, it's perfectly OK for a child to be unruly or hateful or disrespectful or thieving or lying and/or bullying. Got it.

I don't know that anybody said that. Why do you think beating is the only available or effective response to "unruly..." etc.?

I was famously unruly as a child and also as a young adult, got my ass whipped by my mom as a boy, paddled in school by the teachers, and a couple of times as an adult engaging in non adult types of behavior. In all of that, I can say that the first time one gets his ass whipped, it tends to impart a perspective that was not previously in the realm of experience. But after that initial ass whipping, no further insight can be gleaned from it, and it can only be considered something to be avoided.

I got my butt whipped many a time myself...I didn't want it, I felt humiliated, it hurt like hell....but looking back I can say I deserved every one of them, except for maybe 2 or 3 times. Overall, I feel it made me a better person than I would have been had I not gotten steered in the right direction.

[O Really]

I got my butt whipped many a time myself...I didn't want it, I felt humiliated, it hurt like hell....

Well, at least it's good it wasn't violent.

[O Really]

In my 30+ years of going in people's homes, I've seen the difference in "beaten" children and "unbeaten children".
(for the whiners, that's disciplined and undisciplined)

I've seen kids spit at/on their parents, throw things, including food, in the floor, tell their parents to "do it yourself", "I don't want to", "so what?", etc....and I'm not talking just about teenagers, but kids as young as 4 years old. The parent's reply usually was something like, "you get no candy", "get out of my sight", or worse..."what am I going to do with you?" These are the ones who grow up to curse at or assault their teachers, defy authority, post their stupid "I've got my rights" videos on YouTube when they're pulled over for a traffic violation.
And, lastly, there is a vast difference in attitudes of kids raised in a Christian home vs. a home that's non-Christian. Say what you will about this last part; I'm speaking from OTJ experience, not opinion.

Any of those scenarios would have been preventable long ago with a belt or switch (tree limb for the whiners). Action speaks louder than words.

I've heard it said many times by people, including myself, that they were grateful that their parent(s) gave them a good a** whipping when they needed it, rather than let them get by with any and everything.

What you're missing here, Mr.B, is a verified cause-effect relationship. Sure, you can find lots of nice kids raised in a Christian family; and you can find nice Jewish and non-religious -raised kids as well as Christian brats. Even if most Christians turn out better than most others (not proven), it wouldn't show direct cause since there are so many contributing factors to how a person develops. I'm sure you've heard of people crediting a teacher, a coach, or somebody for their great contribution to making them the way they are. Or having to get a job. Or being forced to study piano. Likewise, you can have anecdotal "evidence" that some people who were beaten as children are "grateful" that they turned out well, but again, a lot of kids not beaten turn themselves around, too. Don't you have any examples of kids being ummm, "discipined" or "spanked" who still turned out to be crooks, thieves and maybe even (gasp) non-Christians? If you don't, I can give you some.

[Mr.B]

Such anecdotes are "opinion", and usually self-serving. They are no substitute for science.

And "science" is no substitute for real life-life experiences; opinions are like ....well, you know.

[Mr.B]

What you're missing here, Mr.B, is a verified cause-effect relationship. Sure, you can find lots of nice kids raised in a Christian family; and you can find nice Jewish and non-religious -raised kids as well as Christian brats. Even if most Christians turn out better than most others (not proven), it wouldn't show direct cause since there are so many contributing factors to how a person develops. I'm sure you've heard of people crediting a teacher, a coach, or somebody for their great contribution to making them the way they are. Or having to get a job. Or being forced to study piano. Likewise, you can have anecdotal "evidence" that some people who were beaten as children are "grateful" that they turned out well, but again, a lot of kids not beaten turn themselves around, too. Don't you have any examples of kids being ummm, "discipined" or "spanked" who still turned out to be crooks, thieves and maybe even (gasp) non-Christians? If you don't, I can give you some.

I'm no expert on the subject; I told you what I saw. I'm certain you could give plenty of examples yourself. My point was Vrede's constant use of "scientific studies" vs. real-life scenarios.

The science is based on rigorous examination of "real life-life experiences" and is not "opinions", fool. Your anecdotes are merely what you've selected to rationalize child beating by you and other assholes.

I rest my case.

[Mr.B]

You haven't made a case. You're merely repeating your preconceived opinions without any actual evidence to support them.
Sure I did. You're just like one of YouTubers who think they're being brilliant by challenging a cop with your rights...you know? It's called disrespect. No one has an opinion but you.

For example, I might say that all Christians are hateful, child beating liars based on my "real life-life experiences" with you, but I'm honest enough to say that isn't the case.
I rest my case. You're insinuating that the instances I've given are lies. You can say what you want; I know what I experienced; and if I began asking you questions about your growing up, like I did once before, you'll begin to insult my wife, you may claim to be honest, but you never admit to being a douchebag.

[neoplacebo]

Read any study, by anybody, about the psychological effect on an adult of being physically (or emotionally) abused by someone they trust and love. Then come back and explain why the effect should be different on a child, just because we euphemistically call the physical abuse "spanking" or "discipline."

I actually know nothing of the studies that have been done in this area and only speak from personal experience. Back when I was a kid, it was a generally acceptable practice to "spank" your child for misbehaving. I never felt as if I were "abused" by getting my ass whipped; all my other friends got their asses whipped as well. It was a normal part of childhood, especially for those of us who tended to push the envelope. Had I been getting my ass whipped on a daily basis for no reason other than bad parents, that's a different story. In any case, having suffered corporal punishment myself, I cannot say that experiencing it has made me violent or that it's affected me in any other way. I generally attempt to avoid conflict but have no idea if this tendency is because I used to get my ass whipped as a kid. I believe an absence of any discipline is inherently bad, but I'm not advocating for ass whippings, either.

[Mr.B]

Vrede...I don't know what makes you so stupid and condescending, but it works. You ought to patent it.

Oh...wait...never mind. Here it is: ® 2001 Vrede's Stupidity. Other Use Restricted

[Mr.B]

I actually know nothing of the studies that have been done in this area and only speak from personal experience. Back when I was a kid, it was a generally acceptable practice to "spank" your child for misbehaving. I never felt as if I were "abused" by getting my ass whipped; all my other friends got their asses whipped as well. It was a normal part of childhood, especially for those of us who tended to push the envelope. Had I been getting my ass whipped on a daily basis for no reason other than bad parents, that's a different story. In any case, having suffered corporal punishment myself, I cannot say that experiencing it has made me violent or that it's affected me in any other way. I generally attempt to avoid conflict but have no idea if this tendency is because I used to get my ass whipped as a kid. I believe an absence of any discipline is inherently bad, but I'm not advocating for ass whippings, either.

Thank you, neoplacebo. This is what I've been trying to say all along. I know of no kids who grew up to be mentally unstable because they got whippings. OTOH, I'm certain there's a lot more kids who grew up to be jerks because of a lack of discipline. Vrede claims that crime rates are decreasing...tell that to the widows of cops that have been gunned down in the last few weeks by those who have no respect for authority; tell that to the mothers of the "unarmed black teenagers" that chose to challenge LEO's with their 'bad-ass' selves and got shot; tell that to the dead babies that were killed by their drug-crazed young mothers .......

[O Really]

I've given your view some thought, Mr.B, and I think I can follow it, even in disagreement. First, I and almost anybody would agree that "discipline" is a good thing for children, when used in a broader sense than just "punishment." Discipline also involves teaching, correcting, establishing habits, etc "Spanking," however, while being a violent form of discipline, is in fact a different topic. So let's see if I understand your position. You're saying that of all the thousands of events, experiences, learning opportunities, school teachers, coaches, friends, friends' families, stubbed toes, puppy loves, chores done, school snuck out of, churches attended, praise and criticism, that you have identified physical beating as being the most significant factor in how a child turns out as an adult. You reject that such beating could be counter-productive or psychologically harmful; you insist that since you were beaten and turned out well that it must work. Do you think there's any possibility that you turned out well despite the beatings? That maybe it was that your family loved you, taught you how to behave, and how to work hard in life? Maybe somebody set a good example? Are you sure it was the beatings?

[Mr.B]

I've given your view some thought, Mr.B, and I think I can follow it, even in disagreement. First, I and almost anybody would agree that "discipline" is a good thing for children, when used in a broader sense than just "punishment." Discipline also involves teaching, correcting, establishing habits, etc "Spanking," however, while being a violent form of discipline, is in fact a different topic.
Yes...discipline (training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character )is not always physical discipline (control that is gained by requiring that rules or orders be obeyed and punishing bad behavior), nor is it always "violent" as you envision. That's not to say that physical discipline can't/won't be violent by no means; that in itself requires discipline (self-control) on the part of the parent.

So let's see if I understand your position. You're saying that of all the thousands of events, experiences, learning opportunities, school teachers, coaches, friends, friends' families, stubbed toes, puppy loves, chores done, school snuck out of, churches attended, praise and criticism, that you have identified physical beating as being the most significant factor in how a child turns out as an adult.
Now you're beginning to sound like Vrede. That's not what I said nor insinuated. In a nutshell, I said an 'ass-whuppin' ' never made anyone I know into a mental case. As neoplacebo said, a whipping is a part of growing up; you learn wrong from right, you learn not to test your parent's limits, you learn respect for elders, superiors, teachers, other kids, and...yourself.


You reject that such beating could be counter-productive or psychologically harmful; you insist that since you were beaten and turned out well that it must work.
I didn't "insist" any such a dunnit. I said that kids I grew up with who were spanked turned out well and were grateful that their parents didn't let them do as they darn well pleased. I don't recall any kids ever mentioning a "time-out", having to go sit in the corner, or being confined to their room. (where they've got everything at their disposal)

Do you think there's any possibility that you turned out well despite the beatings?
I never got "beatings"; judging by the home I grew up in, that would be debatable.

That maybe it was that your family loved you, taught you how to behave, and how to work hard in life? Maybe somebody set a good example? Are you sure it was the beatings?
Again...no "beatings". I got all those. When I misbehaved despite being "taught...how to behave", that was when I got a spanking/whipping, and I feel it made me a better person.

Look, O Really, I'm not saying that spanking a child is the only way to determine how they'll turn out as adults. I am saying that there's children who needed discipline, physical or oral, who didn't get it while growing up. These are the ones who create problems for themselves.... and their parents who vehemently stated "we don't beat our kids".

[Mr.B]

"No one suggested eliminating discipline...."

Curious...give us your definition of discipline.