Maaaybe Joe could have handled some details better, but 45SHOLE made the deal with the Taliban and we usually fail when we try to build a nation with puppets. Seems like all we accomplished is 2 decades of misery and the many many years of hostility that will arise from that . . . oh, I almost forgot about the 2 decades of pork for the merchants of death and other corrupt leeches.
Good time for a selection of posts from page 1, starting almost 9 years ago when BRD did:
Vrede on Wed Oct 24, 2012 wrote:Democracy? - Most Americans want us out now.
I suppose this could be new thread, but it seems appropriate here, too.
Comment from a friend. How come defense spending is always off the table. And why do we call it defense when we're always playing offense. It used to be the War Department, not the Department of Defense. I move the old name be readopted.
Vrede on Fri Dec 27, 2013 wrote:Majority of Americans: Invading Afghanistan Was 'Wrong Thing to Do'
The invasion was an understandable response to 9/11 and I'm pretty sure Gore would have done much the same thing. Rather, my problem is more with the utter mismanagement of the occupation from the start and the fact that it's lasted about a decade too long.
I think maybe we could decide if we'd consider it an "invasion" if we imagined thousands of Afghani soldiers shooting at people in NW DC and chunking rockets into Leicester.
Probably an apt comparison within a few weeks or months, but he apparently neglects to mention that Afghanistan has looked just like Vietnam for nearly 20 years.
So has anyone taken a Vietnam vacay lately? Da Nang, f'rinstance. Described in travel brochures as "Port city with a Hindu sculpture museum, sandy beach resorts, pagodas & the Marble Mountains." Doesn't sound much like all the domino-threatening commie fear mongers painted a takeover by the north, does it? Without that ill-conceived war, Vietnam probably would have been a thriving country for a lot longer, the US would have had enough extra money to create a decent healthcare system or something worthwhile, 50,000 young (mostly) men wouldn't be dead and many thousands more wouldn't be permanently injured.
So has anyone taken a Vietnam vacay lately? Da Nang, f'rinstance. Described in travel brochures as "Port city with a Hindu sculpture museum, sandy beach resorts, pagodas & the Marble Mountains." Doesn't sound much like all the domino-threatening commie fear mongers painted a takeover by the north, does it? Without that ill-conceived war, Vietnam probably would have been a thriving country for a lot longer, the US would have had enough extra money to create a decent healthcare system or something worthwhile, 50,000 young (mostly) men wouldn't be dead and many thousands more wouldn't be permanently injured.
Not disagreeing with you but any half bright right wing nutjob could bring North and South Korea up as a foil to your Vietnam premise.
So has anyone taken a Vietnam vacay lately? Da Nang, f'rinstance. Described in travel brochures as "Port city with a Hindu sculpture museum, sandy beach resorts, pagodas & the Marble Mountains." Doesn't sound much like all the domino-threatening commie fear mongers painted a takeover by the north, does it? Without that ill-conceived war, Vietnam probably would have been a thriving country for a lot longer, the US would have had enough extra money to create a decent healthcare system or something worthwhile, 50,000 young (mostly) men wouldn't be dead and many thousands more wouldn't be permanently injured.
Not disagreeing with you but any half bright right wing nutjob could bring North and South Korea up as a foil to your Vietnam premise.
They could, as they are prone to pander in false equivalencies. US involvement, along with UN, lasted about 3 years. US forces have remained in South Korea to enforce the armistice agreement, but for 68 years there's been little actual fighting and each Korea has pretty much done its own thing despite occasional blustering. In both Vietnam and Afghanistan, the US was an active participant in an internal conflict that never had any chance of a negotiated resolution.
Probably an apt comparison within a few weeks or months, but he apparently neglects to mention that Afghanistan has looked just like Vietnam for nearly 20 years.
I considered including 'days', but thought that might be giving the Taliban too much credit.
Assuming that the Taliban was always going to prevail over the internal mercenaries that we cut off, this may have been the best outcome. Rapid collapse = fewer deaths.
Last edited by Vrede too on Sun Aug 15, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are fewer deaths because there's no resistance. It's pretty easy for the Taliban or any invading force to roll quickly when the opposition turns and runs. Remember the famed Iraqui "Elite Republican Guard"?
There are fewer deaths because there's no resistance. It's pretty easy for the Taliban or any invading force to roll quickly when the opposition turns and runs. Remember the famed Iraqui "Elite Republican Guard"?
Wait, wait, don't tell me
Who was the invading force?
And what was the government that was invaded?
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”
So has anyone taken a Vietnam vacay lately? Da Nang, f'rinstance. Described in travel brochures as "Port city with a Hindu sculpture museum, sandy beach resorts, pagodas & the Marble Mountains." Doesn't sound much like all the domino-threatening commie fear mongers painted a takeover by the north, does it? Without that ill-conceived war, Vietnam probably would have been a thriving country for a lot longer, the US would have had enough extra money to create a decent healthcare system or something worthwhile, 50,000 young (mostly) men wouldn't be dead and many thousands more wouldn't be permanently injured.
Not disagreeing with you but any half bright right wing nutjob could bring North and South Korea up as a foil to your Vietnam premise.
They could, as they are prone to pander in false equivalencies. US involvement, along with UN, lasted about 3 years. US forces have remained in South Korea to enforce the armistice agreement, but for 68 years there's been little actual fighting and each Korea has pretty much done its own thing despite occasional blustering. In both Vietnam and Afghanistan, the US was an active participant in an internal conflict that never had any chance of a negotiated resolution.
Well, I'm not convinced it's false equivalence. The US has had military presence, which by definition is being an active participant in an internal "conflict" (which may or may not have any chance of success) in Korea for over 70 years for no apparent purpose. Our presence in Japan has been longer than that, but benign and part of a surrender agreement....like the UN Korea scene. If the Kim family decides to go over the side, don't kid yourself that it won't be another Vietnam. We would have to go big and fast or run and hide. And I guess that makes me the half bright right wing nutjob.
As has happened so many times before, we just armed the Taliban with tens (hundreds?) of billions of dollars in captured military equipment. Of course, this will necessitate the purchase of vast amounts of new military equipment in order to contain the threat from our own guns and bombs.
Feed the Pentagon and merchants of death, nothing else matters.
As has happened so many times before, we just armed the Taliban with tens (hundreds?) of billions of dollars in captured military equipment. Of course, this will necessitate the purchase of vast amounts of new military equipment in order to contain the threat from our own guns and bombs.
Feed the Pentagon and merchants of death, nothing else matters.
Don't forget the factional militias in Iraq that we've heavily armed and wished best of luck.
The Taliban harbored the people that took out the WTC/Pentagon and did nothing to bring them immediately to justice. I have zero sympathy for or solidarity with them.
War crimes? Gore would have invaded, too.
Screwed up the occupation = Bush disaster.
Obama escalation = Obama disaster. VP Joe abetted.
45SHOLE escalation = 45SHOLE disaster.
Being the one to turn out the lights = Joe disaster, whether fair and accurate or not. Honorable disaster mention to 45SHOLE for negotiating a May 2021 withdrawal.
20 years, 4 POTUSes = America's disaster. We suck.
