Obamacare

[Roland Deschain]

It's not a state law, but those are the standard requirements for most volunteers, according to the Florida Fire Chiefs Association, and are in line with the requirements of the units I'm familiar with personally. Remember that most fire departments in Florida are union, and they're not going to go out on a call with some yahoo who just thought it would be cool to ride the truck.

I guess it's possible some unit like the Yeehaw Junction Volunteer Fire Department that has no professional members might let in the guy who already has the yellow flasher.

I'd say there is a HUGE difference between here and Florida then. Most local departments here are truly VOLUNTEER. They may have a few paid members, but most of the roster is strictly local guys and gals who want to help the community and there is certainly no union. How would you define a "professional member". Keep in mind that there a countless classes and certifications that can be obtained but none are required.

[O Really]

It's not a state law, but those are the standard requirements for most volunteers, according to the Florida Fire Chiefs Association, and are in line with the requirements of the units I'm familiar with personally. Remember that most fire departments in Florida are union, and they're not going to go out on a call with some yahoo who just thought it would be cool to ride the truck.

I guess it's possible some unit like the Yeehaw Junction Volunteer Fire Department that has no professional members might let in the guy who already has the yellow flasher.

I'd say there is a HUGE difference between here and Florida then. Most local departments here are truly VOLUNTEER. They may have a few paid members, but most of the roster is strictly local guys and gals who want to help the community and there is certainly no union. How would you define a "professional member". Keep in mind that there a countless classes and certifications that can be obtained but none are required.

Back to the original Chicken Little screech, if the departments are all volunteer, and the members don't get paid, not even PPC, then there is no issue of being required to provide medical insurance, and the world is safe from socialism.

The Florida units that are 100% volunteer aren't union, either, and generally union members can't be volunteers. But a lot of the volunteers are in mixed units (professional and volunteer) so they have to meet qualifications standards

[Roland Deschain]

It's not a state law, but those are the standard requirements for most volunteers, according to the Florida Fire Chiefs Association, and are in line with the requirements of the units I'm familiar with personally. Remember that most fire departments in Florida are union, and they're not going to go out on a call with some yahoo who just thought it would be cool to ride the truck.

I guess it's possible some unit like the Yeehaw Junction Volunteer Fire Department that has no professional members might let in the guy who already has the yellow flasher.

I'd say there is a HUGE difference between here and Florida then. Most local departments here are truly VOLUNTEER. They may have a few paid members, but most of the roster is strictly local guys and gals who want to help the community and there is certainly no union. How would you define a "professional member". Keep in mind that there a countless classes and certifications that can be obtained but none are required.

Back to the original Chicken Little screech, if the departments are all volunteer, and the members don't get paid, not even PPC, then there is no issue of being required to provide medical insurance, and the world is safe from socialism.

The Florida units that are 100% volunteer aren't union, either, and generally union members can't be volunteers. But a lot of the volunteers are in mixed units (professional and volunteer) so they have to meet qualifications standards

I think that all Henderson county departments with the exception of Bat Cave and Gerton would be considered "combination" departments, in that they all have at least one paid firefighter on duty during the day. However, even the largest departments with heavier paid staff rely heavily on the volunteers to support incident response. I think you are being confused by what you know from Florida and the vast differences between there and here. When I say the departments here are truly volunteer that means only to join the department and begin to "work". I know that there are a couple of departments here that do offer a PPC benefit to it's members. However, they are still volunteers. The miniscule paid staffs are a totally different matter and are not included in this conversation so keep that in mind moving forward.

[Roland Deschain]

As I told you and you quoted me telling you, I responded to your question:

...I assume that volunteer departments have some minimal health standards but maybe they don't. Whichever, minimal health standards are far different from the well known long term health benefits of having access to healthcare. Which is it this time - your poor comprehension or you're just deflecting again?...

You responded but did not answer.

I responded that I don't know and that it makes no difference to this discussion. Then, I added:

...But, what's really going on here is that Roland Deschain is trying to wussily divert to a complete irrelevancy by trapping me into posting an inconsequential error so that he can hope to forget his many, many flubs and pathetically try to rectify his utter sense of inferiority. Once again, he's failed.

Run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

All you gave was your ASSUmption.

What's an "ASSU"?

It's true, when I don't know something, especially something so utterly irrelevant and that's really just your pitiful and unsuccessful diversion from your own failings, I say I don't know. You should try it, you won't make such a fool of yourself so often.

An ASSUmption....just add ass to u. Something you are very good at

The Fletcher FD, one of the ones Roland Deschain claims to have worked for,

Please quote the statement where I claimed to have worked for Fletcher. I simply gave you a list of some of the larger local FD's off the top of my head. I made no claim as to having EVER been affiliated with ANY of them.

Lie, again:

...Hmmm...citation....over 30 year fire service experience including 3 as chief officer....or call any of the local volunteer departments and ask. Valley Hill, Blue Ridge, Mountain Home, Dana, Fletcher....you want numbers and chief's names?...

You definitely implied affiliation. If you were honest you wouldn't have such trouble keeping track, or if you were smarter you'd have an easier time remembering your deceptions or would at least look back to see what they were.

Speaking of Fletcher FD, it was hilarious when Roland Deschain challenged me to check his credentials there then ran away, as he always does, when I accepted the challenge and asked him to provide me the identifiers necessary to complete the task.

Run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

You have a rich imagination or very poor comprehension skills if you think that implied affiliation. I made two separate points....I was a firefighter for over 30 years including 3 as a chief OR you could call any of the local departments and ask. Either you fail to grasp the English language or are twisting to avoid being proven the liar we know you are

However, a physical agility test is not a measure of overall health. So again, vrede, in a VOLUNTEER organization who makes the call as to who is healthy enough to serve?

Damn, you're stupid. It makes no difference who makes the call when every other critical social servant gets covered by health insurance and much more. As you've admitted, even VOLUNTEER FDs get tax support so someone sure better be enforcing minimal health standards. You're still defending slacker businesses and homeowners.

Is it set simply by passing an agility test?

I hope not. I don't want unpaid people with existing heart conditions, etc. risking their health, lives and families for my health, life and property. I'm just not as greedy and uncaring of firefighters as you.

Tell us. You obviously have some idea.

Damn, you're stupid. I'm starting to run out of words to tell you that I don't know, that it makes no difference to the issue we're discussing, and that your pathetic diversion has been exposed.

Yet you keep shooting off your mouth like you are the expert on everything. Your admission says it all....YOU DO NOT KNOW

As to your question.....I'm offering simply an opinion based in experience and that is....for the most part those who come out to volunteer as firefighters are healthy and feel they are able to do the tasks. So, your point falls flat without ever taking off....as usual.

Damn, you're stupid. "for the most part" is your admission that some are not healthy enough to be firefighters from the start. More importantly, we're discussing years of ongoing, year-round access to healthcare, a crucial element in maintaining optimum health so they can continue to protect my health, life and property and do all the other things that make for a rich life, whatever their state of health when they started.

So, back to the question you keep running away from - Why do you want unhealthy people as firefighters and how does that serve the citizenry?

Once again you have allowed your alligator mouth to fly open while claiming you do NOT know. The departments are organized in ways that allow for older or "less healthy" individuals to still volunteer and serve without being exposed to the rigors of actual firefighting. Really vrede a little knowledge on a subject would serve you well before shooting off your mouth and proving yourself a blathering idiot who only wants to argue from behind a computer keyboard.

[Roland Deschain]

Poor Roland Deschain, once again his illiteracy and poor sentence structure is somehow my fault, something he suddenly "discovered" after a bunch of my responses to his post. That's how he is and always has been, no personal responsibility.

Personal attacks when unable to debate the topic. The usual vrede MO

It's hilarious that Roland Deschain thinks he's scored some victory with his diversionary irrelevancy. It makes no difference to this topic who currently makes the call as to whether a firefighter is healthy enough, and getting them insured will certainly make sure that the determination is made sooner and more expertly than it now is.

It will? How so? Having insurance does not equate to getting care. I've had a VERY good insurance plan for decades and do not even have a doctor.

It also makes no difference if the old or visibly sick and injured get light duty. Those without access to healthcare are more likely to have poorer health and the question Roland Deschain has dodged for post after post, as usual, is why he wants unhealthy people as firefighters and how does that serve the citizenry? Run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

I answered your question, and it is set up within departmental oragainzation. Your ignorance of the facts does not make them any less true. However, you do a very good job of trying to twist everyhting around.

[neoplacebo]

I would imagine that your VERY good insurance policy you've had for decades, yet you have no doctor is really just a VERY good insurance policy for your insurance company; not for you. And I further imagine that "having insurance is not equated with having care" is yet another reason to believe that your VERY good insurance policy is, indeed, VERY good for your insurance company. Just out of curiosity, how much do you think you've paid them over the decades and not gotten care?

[O Really]

I think that all Henderson county departments with the exception of Bat Cave and Gerton would be considered "combination" departments, in that they all have at least one paid firefighter on duty during the day. However, even the largest departments with heavier paid staff rely heavily on the volunteers to support incident response. I think you are being confused by what you know from Florida and the vast differences between there and here. When I say the departments here are truly volunteer that means only to join the department and begin to "work". I know that there are a couple of departments here that do offer a PPC benefit to it's members. However, they are still volunteers. The miniscule paid staffs are a totally different matter and are not included in this conversation so keep that in mind moving forward.

Thanks, although assuming what you say is accurate, there's not much left to this conversation. We got off on to firefighters because somebody posted an Obamacare-bashing article about volunteer firefighting units closing because they'd have to offer health insurance to the firefighters. Since that would clearly not apply to any of the departments you described, I'll just attribute the original article to an uninformed muck-raking alarmist and move on.

[Roland Deschain]

I think that all Henderson county departments with the exception of Bat Cave and Gerton would be considered "combination" departments, in that they all have at least one paid firefighter on duty during the day. However, even the largest departments with heavier paid staff rely heavily on the volunteers to support incident response. I think you are being confused by what you know from Florida and the vast differences between there and here. When I say the departments here are truly volunteer that means only to join the department and begin to "work". I know that there are a couple of departments here that do offer a PPC benefit to it's members. However, they are still volunteers. The miniscule paid staffs are a totally different matter and are not included in this conversation so keep that in mind moving forward.

Thanks, although assuming what you say is accurate, there's not much left to this conversation. We got off on to firefighters because somebody posted an Obamacare-bashing article about volunteer firefighting units closing because they'd have to offer health insurance to the firefighters. Since that would clearly not apply to any of the departments you described, I'll just attribute the original article to an uninformed muck-raking alarmist and move on.

True, HENDERSON COUNTY,NC may not be affected (I can think of maybe 3 departments that might). However, that is only one small piece of a VERY LARGE nation. It needs to be remembered that 87% of the fire departments in the country are volly.

[Roland Deschain]

Once again vrede has confused the total number of volunteer firefighters vs. the total number of volunteer fire DEPARTMENTS. The facts are that 87% of the FIRE DEPARTMENTS in this country are volunteer. His efforts now to appear superior are only making him look like a fool

[O Really]

There are about 27,000 all- or mostly volunteer departments, and about 817,000 volunteer firefighters. An average per unit of about 30. Some may be over 50, most are not. Only a small percentage of the volunteer units would be affected by Obamacare even if the volunteers were considered employees, and most are not. Original premise of Obamacare driving volunteer departments out of business is again declared bullshit.

Not that volunteer units aren't in trouble. But it's got nothing to do with Obamacare...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... ters_x.htm

[Roland Deschain]

There are about 27,000 all- or mostly volunteer departments, and about 817,000 volunteer firefighters. An average per unit of about 30. Some may be over 50, most are not. Only a small percentage of the volunteer units would be affected by Obamacare even if the volunteers were considered employees, and most are not. Original premise of Obamacare driving volunteer departments out of business is again declared bullshit.

Not that volunteer units aren't in trouble. But it's got nothing to do with Obamacare...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... ters_x.htm

True, an average per unit of about 30 firefighters. However, you get into situations where you may have 10 "units" in one county but they are all considered part of a single entity, that would be 300 firefighters not to mention any administrative staff. As we have already proven, just in NC and FL, there are vast differences in departmental structures and organizations across the country. While it may not have as bad an affect locally, there are areas where any reduction in service could be devastating.

[Ombudsman]

There are about 27,000 all- or mostly volunteer departments, and about 817,000 volunteer firefighters. An average per unit of about 30. Some may be over 50, most are not. Only a small percentage of the volunteer units would be affected by Obamacare even if the volunteers were considered employees, and most are not. Original premise of Obamacare driving volunteer departments out of business is again declared bullshit.

Not that volunteer units aren't in trouble. But it's got nothing to do with Obamacare...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... ters_x.htm

True, an average per unit of about 30 firefighters. However, you get into situations where you may have 10 "units" in one county but they are all considered part of a single entity, that would be 300 firefighters not to mention any administrative staff. As we have already proven, just in NC and FL, there are vast differences in departmental structures and organizations across the country. While it may not have as bad an affect locally, there are areas where any reduction in service could be devastating.

You need to stop beating this dead horse and bury it before the smell gets any worse.

[Roland Deschain]

...Not that volunteer units aren't in trouble. But it's got nothing to do with Obamacare...
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nat ... ters_x.htm

Oh look:

...A growing number of "volunteer" departments rely on government funds to pay for a few fulltime firefighters; to pay volunteers per call or per hour; or to pay for volunteers' health insurance or pensions...

Volunteer departments are already doing it, thus lowering Roland Deschain's deliberate Henny Penny, tabloid Daily Mail-inspired choice of the deceptive 87% figure even further. Who would have guessed?

You mean that insurance that I have said they get since the beginning of this discussion? That same insurance for some reason you were unable to grasp the fact that they were getting? Is THAT the insurance you mean?? Just making sure because we all know that you would never prove another poster correct and get stuck with egg on your face

[Roland Deschain]

Your illiteracy strikes again. It's obvious from the context that the article is not referring to just health insurance when on duty - "pensions" is a HUGE clue. Not that you'll ever admit that you screwed up again. You're just not built that way.

Also:

...two-thirds of all fire departments are volunteer...

Not "87%". Maybe it's like when Roland Deschain "rounded" less than 40% to a "close to a 50% increase". That was hilarious!

I think I'll be taking the word of the US Fire Administration over USA Today's:

Department Type

The department type is based on the NFPA definition (Career: 100 percent of a department's firefighters are career; Mostly Career: 51-99 percent of a department's firefighters are career; Mostly Volunteer: 1-50 percent of a department's firefighters are career; Volunteer: 100 percent of a department's firefighters are volunteer). Of the fire departments registered with the census,

8 percent are career
5 percent are mostly career
16 percent are mostly volunteer
71 percent are volunteer

http://apps.usfa.fema.gov/census/summary.cfm

Last I checked 16 + 71 = 87. As far as "pensions" go you might want to bone up a bit on knowledge before you go there. It will save you the embarrassment of being proven an idiot on the subject again.

[Roland Deschain]

...It needs to be remembered that 87% of the fire departments in the country are volly.

Last I checked "mostly volunteer" is not the same as volunteer and you never once used the word "mostly". Your deliberately Henny Penny, tabloid Daily Mail-inspired choice of the deceptive 87% figure has been lowered even further.

Now, about your stupidity in thinking that USA Today was referring to just on-duty health insurance?

Of course you have never checked, do not know the difference, or know that all departments but two in Henderson county are considered by the NFPA as "mostly volunteer". However, you are more than willing to try to twist and spin you way out of yet another intentionally deceptive twist.

Now, about YOUR stupidity in thinking that USA Today out weighs the USFA and your ignorance regarding fire department pensions, operations, organization, and insurance policies?

[Wneglia]

"Totally Ineffective"

[O Really]

Damn liberal mainstream media. Obama lackeys.

[homerfobe]

World two biggest frauds.

[Wneglia]

Don We Now Our Gay Apparel...



Great Use Of Taxpayer $$$$$ </sarcasm>

[Wneglia]

...Great Use Of Taxpayer $$$$$ </sarcasm> ...

Your own link says, "An LGBT group called “Out2Enroll” has just created an ad," and the YT text says the same. Nothing about "Taxpayer $$$$$". Kind of early to be chugging the egg nog, isn't it? </not sarcasm>

OK. Federal Funding was an assumption on my part, but with their close involvement with the Obama administration, I was suspicious. Besides, since they are a part of the Sellers Dorsey Foundation, their 501c3 status shields them from paying taxes. I can't find any references to a federal grant, but I didn't look too hard.

At any rate, I think the ad will do little to improve enrollment among LBGT, but will reinforce negative stereotypes of their community. The bigger issue at hand is the fact that many of the exchange plans are gouging HIV patients with higher copays and deductibles for their drugs.

BTW, I don't care for eggnog. Would rather use the spiking fluids straight. Don't think that there will be much of that this Christmas as I am on call Christmas week.