Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

[Vrede too]

Thomas Edwin Blanton, Jr.; Herman Frank Cash; Robert Edward Chambliss; and Bobby Frank Cherry also contributed to the death of Jim Crow, but no one calls them heroes and no one will ever call Dylann Roof a "hero". He just epitomizes a problem that people have been working on for years and it would be a disservice to the fallen to not seize every form of progress that can be achieved before the apathetic middle moves on to thinking about something else.

What have you got against politicians being responsive to their constituents, Seth Milner?

[O Really]

They can say "it's 'heritage' not hate" all they like. I'll even agree for the sake of discussion. But exactly what is that "heritage"? What has historically made the South different from anywhere else? Well, it was more agrarian and less industrial than the Northeast, but not more so than the Midwest. It was populated more heavily with Scots-Irish people than in a lot of places and had fewer immigrants from, for example, Italy. Better weather, some of it. More religious in some places than the US as a whole, but not more so than, for example, Utah, Pennsylvania, or the upper Midwest. But there is one big difference - and that derives directly from slavery and the degree to which pre-Civil War economy and culture was dependent on it. And the degree to which acceptance of black people as full citizens was fought tooth and nail. To Jim Crow and all the related segregation. Bottom line, the most significant defining parts of Southern "heritage" cannot be separated from slavery and segregation.

So no matter whether one says "hate" or "heritage" a Confederate flag is still a symbol of white supremacy and segregation that has no business flying on government property or on a state flag.

But that's OK, Billy-Bubba - you can keep yours waving high, bless yore lil' redneck heart.

[Vrede too]

Zero for 40 at Predicting Attacks: Why Do Media Still Take FBI Terror Warnings Seriously?

[O Really]

So, Seth, or whoever.
Other than some version of a Confederate flag, what flags wave as part of state houses?
They all have a US flag and a state flag. It may be that nobody still has the Confederate flag up with those two, but it is depicted on some state flags and is or was flown on various Capitol grounds.

Even places that have a legitimate claim to "six flags" like Texas, don't fly those flags as part of the contemporary array. But somehow a battle flag of a failed armed rebellion against the US has gotten honored spots even long after its original significance has been usurped by groups like KKK and segregationists. And how many non-segregationist politicians have you seen pose with the Confederate flag, as George Wallace did?

It has meaning, and the meaning is not benign.

[GoCubsGo]

"But...in a strange twist of fate, a racist, mentally defunct murderer shines as their hero; he's the one who broke the camel's back in the "Take Down The Confederate Flag" movement."

Maybe you should have said "un-wittingly shines as their hero.."

"It won't bring those nine people back, does nothing for their families, but does shine a light on a symbol that deeply insults many of a bygone era."

:?: :?: But not today?

If you take it in the context of the entire sentence, it's pretty self evident.

See ya later Mr B (please don't quote me anymore, thx.),

[billy.pilgrim]

They can say "it's 'heritage' not hate" all they like. I'll even agree for the sake of discussion. But exactly what is that "heritage"? What has historically made the South different from anywhere else? Well, it was more agrarian and less industrial than the Northeast, but not more so than the Midwest. It was populated more heavily with Scots-Irish people than in a lot of places and had fewer immigrants from, for example, Italy. Better weather, some of it. More religious in some places than the US as a whole, but not more so than, for example, Utah, Pennsylvania, or the upper Midwest. But there is one big difference - and that derives directly from slavery and the degree to which pre-Civil War economy and culture was dependent on it. And the degree to which acceptance of black people as full citizens was fought tooth and nail. To Jim Crow and all the related segregation. Bottom line, the most significant defining parts of Southern "heritage" cannot be separated from slavery and segregation.

So no matter whether one says "hate" or "heritage" a Confederate flag is still a symbol of white supremacy and segregation that has no business flying on government property or on a state flag.

But that's OK, Billy-Bubba - you can keep yours waving high, bless yore lil' redneck heart.

The can of Glory Foods Southern Style collard greens that I opened last night claims right smack on the can to be full of southern heritage and culture, but instead of having a flag on or in the can - of all things, they had a picture of a plate of greens on the label and some flavorful (but over-cooked greens inside)

but how can they claim heritage without the flag?

[Mr.B]

"See ya later Mr B (please don't quote me anymore, thx.)"

Your loss ... don't post; I won't quote.

Open forum; if you don't like it, use PM. ©Vrede Says

[Bungalow Bill]

I'm sure the SCV and other neo-Confeds would give anything for Roof
to have been photographed with a Nazi flag instead of a Confed one.
Too late now.

[O Really]

I'm sure the SCV and other neo-Confeds would give anything for Roof
to have been photographed with a Nazi flag instead of a Confed one.
Too late now.

Not only the real racist/segregationist/white supremicists, but also those who really believe (mistakenly or not) that flag is a benign symbol of southern hospitality. Thanks to Roof, it will henceforth always be associated with the dark side.

There's a redneck outfit on US-25 outside of Traveler's Rest that has the big flag out front and sells various confederate stuff. Turns out they're on a real list of hate groups. In fact, there are, I think, 5 hate groups in Greenville county that fly the ol' stars and bars.

[GoCubsGo]

http://reverbpress.com/news/were-religi ... -violated/

[O Really]

History written by the losers... https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... are-wrong/

[GoCubsGo]

History written by the losers... https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... are-wrong/

Squeaky wheels......

[Vrede too]

Law of unintended consequences.......an ironic legacy.......chaos theory doing its thing....

If it weren't for states insisting on displaying it and the tragic irony of SC doing so, it wouldn't have been as easy to make an issue of it, many national businesses would still be selling it, most Civil War monuments wouldn't be considering removing it and TV Land would probably still be showing The Dukes of Hazard.

Good job white Southern cons, you've done it to yourselves again.

[Seth Milner]

What have you got against politicians being responsive to their constituents, Seth Milner?

If they were in fact being truly responsive, nothing. Unfortunately, the majority of politicians and wannabe politicians are self-serving dolts; ready to wade in on any controversial subject and support it, or stand against it. So many put on such a ridiculous dog and pony show, it's obvious they are faking any sort of true beliefs in an issue; and it's also obvious they are seeking popularity so as to be remembered come re-election or election time. A famous example of this is President Obama who at one time was quoted as saying he was against same-sex marriage. When his continued presidency was to determined by an election and his popularity was waning, suddenly, he was all for same-sex marriage. His turnabout worked; he was re-elected. Now he has to save face and stick to his guns. I seriously wonder his true feelings should one of his beautiful daughters announce she wanted to marry a woman.

So, Seth, or whoever. Other than some version of a Confederate flag, what flags wave as part of state houses? They all have a US flag and a state flag. It may be that nobody still has the Confederate flag up with those two, but it is depicted on some state flags and is or was flown on various Capitol grounds.

But somehow a battle flag of a failed armed rebellion against the US has gotten honored spots even long after its original significance has been usurped by groups like KKK and segregationists. And how many non-segregationist politicians have you seen pose with the Confederate flag, as George Wallace did? It has meaning, and the meaning is not benign.

My point all along has been the squabbling over past history. Yes, atrocities have been committed under the banner of the Confederate flag; idiots still commit atrocities using the Confederate flag as a battle cry; the KKK also touts the American flag in their asinine displays of manliness; shouldn't then, the American flag be banned from flying atop state-owned property because the KKK is a hate/racist group? Or maybe the state or federal supreme courts should deem it a hate crime to wave either flag in parades or gatherings of hate/racist groups? Of course not. Why? Because, according to the un-elected group of people that sit in the SCOTUS and decides what's right for everybody whether they like it or not and your vote doesn't mean a thing, has deemed it an expression of free speech! Idiots are even allowed to burn the US flag expressing their free speech, whereas formerly it was a federal crime to desecrate or burn the flag.

OK now, the rebel/Confederate flag is a relic from the past. Our money has likenesses of long-dead presidents and a few long-dead non-presidents; some were popular, some were despised, one individual (that I know of) whose picture is on a bill, was an atheist. Why isn't there a great clamoring to remove those likenesses from our money? IT'S ANCIENT HISTORY! Removing the Confederate flag is not going to end hatred and bitterness as long as mankind inhabits this rock we live on; something will replace it; it's human nature.

[O Really]

Removing the Confederate flag is not going to end hatred and bitterness as long as mankind inhabits this rock we live on; something will replace it; it's human nature.

I don't know of anyone who claimed it would. That's not the point. The point is that governmental units of the United States shouldn't be flying a flag that originally symbolized armed rebellion against the US and recently (last 50 years) has been used primarily as a flag of segregation and white supremacy. If WalMart or whoever chooses not to sell it for their own business reasons, fine. It's their choice in what they see in their on best interests.

[Seth Milner]

And while I'm in this thread, let me reflect a moment on race, religion, terror, etc., the subject of this thread, and many other threads in these "debate" forums:

You folks are constantly spitting and sputtering about equal rights and tolerance; among a selected few other subjects; castigating anyone who posts differing opinions. There are no debates; it's one-sided name calling.

With no more members than it has, this forum has some of the most hateful people I've seen in a good while in any forum, and I've participated in many over the years, and in several states. Of course, I've seen blowups and cursing due to getting pissed off, but they usually simmer down and things start to flow smoothly again. They don't and haven't here. If you confess religion, here you are ridiculed, castigated, and your religious beliefs are cursed in the vilest way for expressing religious thoughts. If you're atheist, you're a God-hater (haven't seen any cursing here) and a heathen.

If you vote or think conservative, you're unmercifully run into the ground and deemed to be an idiot, redneck, or trailer trash.

If you're a liberal thinker or vote liberal, you're an advocate for everything that's wrong in this country.

If you support homosexuality, you're deemed to be a homosexual and you advocate the proliferation of other sexual perversions. If you're against homosexuality, you're a bigot and a homophobe, and you're secretly a homosexual yourself.
These are just a few, I believe I've made my point.

Where's the tolerance? Where's other poster's rights? Where's the respect for other people's opinions? Better yet, where's the respect for other people?

Now the last question: where's all the members listed in the membership roll? Besides saying "they couldn't take it", somebody explain the real reason they're no longer posting; what couldn't they take? And why? (3 questions)

[Seth Milner]

Removing the Confederate flag is not going to end hatred and bitterness as long as mankind inhabits this rock we live on; something will replace it; it's human nature.

I don't know of anyone who claimed it would.
Nor did I insinuate anyone did.

That's not the point. The point is that governmental units of the United States shouldn't be flying a flag that originally symbolized armed rebellion against the US and recently (last 50 years) has been used primarily as a flag of segregation and white supremacy.
But that is NOT what it stands for today. It is a relic of past history. The fact that hate-groups have tarnished it's meaning is not a reason (in many people's opinion) to hide it from view, no more than removing any other past relics, photos, monuments, etc. that at one time or the other, was, or still is, considered offensive.

If WalMart or whoever chooses not to sell it for their own business reasons, fine. It's their choice in what they see in their on best interests.
Consider the source in their case; then go watch some People of Walmart videos. The dollar is at stake.

[O Really]

C'mon, Seth - that flag is definitely not simply a historical relic. And a flag is not the same as a statue. A statue is in one place and says (for example) "this is in honor of the guys who died in the Civil War." The Confederate flag (or battle flag or northern Virginia) is flown as an expression of rebellion. I've got no problem with individual display, no more than I would try to make it illegal to fly a Nazi flag in ones yard or from ones car. But do you really think the Confederate flag has a rightful place on government property - not as a historical relic, but as a contemporary symbol?

[Seth Milner]

C'mon, Seth - that flag is definitely not simply a historical relic. And a flag is not the same as a statue. A statue is in one place and says (for example) "this is in honor of the guys who died in the Civil War." The Confederate flag (or battle flag or northern Virginia) is flown as an expression of rebellion. I've got no problem with individual display, no more than I would try to make it illegal to fly a Nazi flag in ones yard or from ones car. But do you really think the Confederate flag has a rightful place on government property - not as a historical relic, but as a contemporary symbol?

Sheesh. What is it hurting? Why does a murderer suddenly become a hero for it's demise when it's been around for years and years? There wasn't an urgent effort to take it down before; dissent, yes, urgency no. Face it; unwittingly (thanks Mr.B) that twit in the photo has become a hero to the anti-flaggers.

Gotta go now, night fishin' calls. Later.

[GoCubsGo]

Also, if a contemporary symbol that really does represent enslavement is deeply hurtful to a large segment (25,000,000 African Americans) of the population, especially in the deep south does should it be flying on a government building that is supposed to represent all the people?

Not to mention the Confederate Constitution......
Article I Section 9(1)
The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country, other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

Article I Section 9(4)
No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

Frankly, I just don't get what business it has flying over any government bulding, that's not who and what we are supposed to be.