The Religion Thread

[Seth Milner]

Mr. B has a valid argument though: "Just because someone calls themselves a Christian. . . . " He's correct if 'Christian' is defined by what I've read in the Bible.

Unless you stick to just the specific Mr.B-approved bits of the Bible, that applies to Mr.B too. To simplify his Biblical cherry-picking he claims that the Old Testament has nothing to do with Christianity. As for the New Testament he considers only some pages to be sacrosanct and others to be simply ignored.
Not in what I've read in his posts; only in what you said he claims. No more than what I know about the Bible, I know that OT Law, the Law of Moses, such as mixing fabrics, crops, etc., are laws of obedience. The Ten Commandments are legal laws. Therefore, when you speak of OT law, you should be specific, because according to the NT, laws of obedience NO LONGER are binding in accordance with grace and Christianity.

He has his own personal beliefs and phobias, expects Christianity to follow, and casually dismisses it when it doesn't.
Again, I see that in what YOU claim.

It is what it is. I'm not a bigot though; or Christian; or homosexual; or a condescending idiot like you, billy pilgrim, and rstrong.

Not that I expect you to do anything but evade the question:

Do you honestly believe that churches that endorsed slavery - as Christian beliefs, citing the "Curse of Ham" - were not bigoted?
I never really delved into it enough to get my ass in a sling over it.

How about Mitt Romney's church when it considered blacks to be subhuman - same religious justification - when he was preaching for it?
I wouldn't know about that either; I've never been in his church or heard him preach. When were you there to hear all this?
How about today's churches that still preach it?
Which ones would that be? You sure cover a lot of ground, don't you?

Is there any difference between that and the same treatment of those whom God made homosexual?
From what I read, it wasn't God; it was, and still is Satan, if you believe in either. It's strange how you liberals don't believe in God until it's time to accuse Him.

Churches are free to do so. The rest of us are free to express OUR opinion regarding their beliefs and practices. That you exclusively defend only their side, makes your "I'm not a bigot though" claim seem... like about your usual level of honesty.
You, nor Vrede too, would know "honesty" if it spit in your face. I'm not defending either side. I don't know enough about religion to give authoritive opinions; only opinions on what I have read over the years. As far as homosexuals, I neither support nor condemn and will not go out of my way to do either. They've got their battles, I've got mine; and you should fight yours -- -- in your own country. Go shovel snow if you're bored.

[O Really]

I'm thinking about that knowing someone by the their fruits. If someone says they're Christian and you witness them stealing or cheating on their spouse, does that mean that in their heart, they're still (or ever was) a Christian? )

[/quote]
According to most if not all versions of the Christian Bible, there was ever only one perfect man, and all else have sinned and ostensibly will sin throughout their lives no matter how hard they try. Repent and circle back around to Go. Now I'm not saying that it's not a pretty good guess that the most recent abortion clinic shooter probably isn't a "real" Christian, although there are many who would disagree. But for the vast majority of people who claim to be Christian Denomination A, B, C, or whatever sub-sect or version they're in, I would contend that it is not within human ability or right (according to the Bible) to judge whether they are "real" Christians.

[rstrong]

Oh grow up yourself, you big childish shit. When's the last time you hauled your ass into a church and sat down long enough to know what was being said? Wait, I know, how could I forget?? You read it on the Internet! How silly of me to forget that!
[...]
Oh wait, you have a friend of a friend who goes to church; they told you. Cleared that up.

Seriously....? You're too goddamned stupid to realize that the very church policies I'm talking about were and are openly broadcast to the world by people damned proud of them? You honestly think that not only did Kim Davis use her government position to dictate her religion-based bigotry to others, but Republican candidates like Mike Huckabee were competing to endorse it?

One doesn't have to be Christian to say that Jesus tap-dancing Christ you're either goddamned ignorant or a sleazy, dishonest little shit for using that argument.

There are no such lawsuits. They're a victim of their own paranoia.

Didn't say there were any lawsuits. They're probably not even paranoid because they've now got their ass covered. Given an opportunity though, some $$$-eyed homosexual will try to legally extort money from a church for refusing them "service".

You don't see Jews, Muslims, atheists wiccans or others suing so-called fundamentalist churches for refusing them religious services. Nor do you see it happening for Christians demanding it from OTHER Christian sects with different beliefs.

This is no different. The whole point is that they want NOTHING TO DO WITH the bigoted beliefs of some church sects. They just don't want those sects dictating policy to THEM.

Here in Canada we've had same-sex marriage country-wide for over a decade.

The U.S. has always known our northern neighbors were, let's say, "different".

We call it freedom of religion.

Since you don't understand, read up those fleeing state religion - fundamentalist Christianity - on the Mayflower.

The baker had to make the cake.

That wasn't a church. It wasn't a religious organization. It was a company selling to the general public. As has been explained to you several times already, it's not the same thing. Such companies are not allowed to discriminate. They can't refuse service to blacks, women, the disabled, those of other religions, those of the same religion but of a different sect, etc. That was the rule long before anyone applied it to same-sex marriage.

[O Really]

BTW, the idea that someone could successfully sue a church or a minister (in his/her capacity as minister) for not being willing to marry them is totally bogus. The cake people had to make a cake because they were a public business subject to anti-discrimination law. Churches aren't subject to those laws and have numerous ways to legally discriminate in any part of their business that is "church" business - although not in the part of their business that is not "church" such as daycare centers, etc. Churches can - and some do - regularly discriminate against women, those of other races, those of other beliefs, and those who violate beliefs, all without getting sued. For example, you can't divorce your starter spouse and then get a Catholic priest to conduct a replacement wedding. You can be booted out of church for any number of frivolous reasons, and have no legal recourse. Of course, you might have a problem if you're a minister and also a magistrate, but even then you wouldn't have to conduct a church wedding service.

[Seth Milner]

I'm thinking about that knowing someone by the their fruits. If someone says they're Christian and you witness them stealing or cheating on their spouse, does that mean that in their heart, they're still (or ever was) a Christian? )

According to most if not all versions of the Christian Bible, there was ever only one perfect man, and all else have sinned and ostensibly will sin throughout their lives no matter how hard they try. Repent and circle back around to Go. Now I'm not saying that it's not a pretty good guess that the most recent abortion clinic shooter probably isn't a "real" Christian, although there are many who would disagree. But for the vast majority of people who claim to be Christian Denomination A, B, C, or whatever sub-sect or version they're in, I would contend that it is not within human ability or right (according to the Bible) to judge whether they are "real" Christians.

Again, that's true. It's not our place to judge, but we do see the "fruit" they produce; therefore we're not judging; we're seeing fact. No body can tell me and make me believe that just because the media labeled someone who shot up or bombed an abortion clinic, a Christian, that they are in fact, a Christian. I would think being a Christian, and I have met many, involves commitment to Godly and Biblical beliefs without prejudice.

(For billy: I can't speak for Muslims. I do know that Islam is a political ideology, Muslim is the religion. They are not the same.)

[Vrede too]

Religious bigots have always claimed to be different from previous religious bigots. Sooner or later, their own churches along with everyone else see them as being the same bigots.

[rstrong]

No body can tell me and make me believe that just because the media labeled someone who shot up or bombed an abortion clinic, a Christian, that they are in fact, a Christian.

The same applies equally to anyone committing an terrorist attack and calling themselves Muslim.

As just an example from the last couple weeks, there's a popular hashtag in Europe, #yournomuslimbruv. Muslims are being very vocal about telling would-be terrorists that they're not following the teachings of Islam, and that they're not Muslims. (Which of course makes the terrorists eligible to enter America under Trump's plan.)

I would think being a Christian, and I have met many, involves commitment to Godly and Biblical beliefs without prejudice.

Well sure. The problem is that those beliefs vary widely across Christianity.

There are members of same-sex marriages - performed in and endorsed by their church - who are fully committed to Godly and Biblical beliefs without prejudice. The same goes for Mr.B. When all is said and done the ONLY difference is which decree in Paul's memo to the Corinthians Mr.B has chosen to disregard.

I do know that Islam is a political ideology

That's pure nonsense. Babble used to scare right-wingnuts a couple years ago.

Wikipedia: Islam

C'mon; do some basic research when you're not on a right-wingnut extremist site.

[Seth Milner]

Oh grow up yourself, you big childish shit. When's the last time you hauled your ass into a church and sat down long enough to know what was being said? Wait, I know, how could I forget?? You read it on the Internet! How silly of me to forget that! Oh wait, you have a friend of a friend who goes to church; they told you. Cleared that up.

Seriously....? You're too goddamned stupid to realize that the very church policies I'm talking about were and are openly broadcast to the world by people damned proud of them?
Sure! That Internet you're so goddamned wrapped up in.

You honestly think that not only did Kim Davis use her government position to dictate her religion-based bigotry to others, but Republican candidates like Mike Huckabee were competing to endorse it?
You still got your ass in a sling over Kim Davis? You dumb shits are so pissed off because she dared to spit in the face of those who thought they would bring her to her knees. She don't even live in your goddamned country, you silly-assed, long-nosed. nosy-ass. (see, I know those words too)

One doesn't have to be Christian to say that Jesus tap-dancing Christ you're either goddamned ignorant or a sleazy, dishonest little shit for using that argument.
Ooooohh. . .step outside and cool off icicle pete, you're getting all heated up! You can call me sleazy, you can call me dishonest or ignorant; we know you're full of shit, because I'm not from or do I live in Canada. Stick that icicle up your ass and smoke it.

There are no such lawsuits. They're a victim of their own paranoia.

I didn't say there were any lawsuits. They're probably not even paranoid because they've now got their ass covered. Given an opportunity though, some $$$-eyed homosexual will try to legally extort money from a church for refusing them "service".

You don't see Jews, Muslims, atheists wiccans or others suing so-called fundamentalist churches for refusing them religious services. Nor do you see it happening for Christians demanding it from OTHER Christian sects with different beliefs.
What part of "I didn't say there were any lawsuits" are you having so much trouble in understanding? I'm going to type this very slowly so you'll understand: I said, and the article states: They were and are, changing their bylaws to PREVENT THE POSSIBILITY of lawsuits.
You also said: "You don't see Jews, Muslims, atheists, wiccans or others suing so-called fundamentalist churches for refusing them religious services." WTF are you talking about?


This is no different. The whole point is that they want NOTHING TO DO WITH the bigoted beliefs of some church sects. They just don't want those sects dictating policy to THEM.
What this thread is about, dumbass. Churches don't want the courts telling them what they have to do in their churches; marrying homosexuals namely. Oh yeah, stupid-ass, it's not bigotry, it's beliefs; religious or otherwise.

Here in Canada we've had same-sex marriage country-wide for over a decade.

The U.S. has always known our northern neighbors were, let's say, "different".

We call it freedom of religion.

Since you don't understand, read up those fleeing state religion - fundamentalist Christianity - on the Mayflower.

The baker had to make the cake.

That wasn't a church. It wasn't a religious organization. It was a company selling to the general public. As has been explained to you several times already, it's not the same thing.
Hmmm..first I've heard about it being explained to me.

Such companies are not allowed to discriminate. They can't refuse service to blacks, women, the disabled, those of other religions, those of the same religion but of a different sect, etc. That was the rule long before anyone applied it to same-sex marriage.
And that's why churches are playing CYA; to ensure that some misguided fool in the SCOTUS won't someday attempt to strike down church by-laws under the guise of un-constitutional or discriminatory; and preventing some $$$-eyed homosexual from suing them. (Damn, I hate typing slow; I hope you got all this.)

Religious bigots have always claimed to be different from previous religious bigots. Sooner or later, their own churches along with everyone else see them as being the same bigots.

Yeah -- -- right.

[Seth Milner]

Here in Canada we've had same-sex marriage country-wide for over a decade.

And everything has been all rosy and peachy keen.

" I am the daughter of a gay father who died of AIDS. I described my experiences in my book: Out From Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting. Over fifty adult children who were raised by LGBT parents have communicated with me and share my concerns about same-sex marriage and parenting. Many of us struggle with our own sexuality and sense of gender because of the influences in our household environments growing up. "

[billy.pilgrim]

I am the child of a evangelical father who lived his life filled with hate for everyone who held different beliefs
I described my experiences in my book: Out From Under: The Impact of Far Right Religious Parenting. Over five hundred thousand adult children who were raised by mormon and various so called christian jumping jehovas
in foster parent environments have communicated with me and share my concerns about and supertiousis beliefs and parenting. Many of us struggle with our own morality and grasp of reality because of the hateful influences in our household environments growing up. "

[O Really]

Here in Canada we've had same-sex marriage country-wide for over a decade.

And everything has been all rosy and peachy keen.

" I am the daughter of a gay father who died of AIDS. I described my experiences in my book: Out From Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting. Over fifty adult children who were raised by LGBT parents have communicated with me and share my concerns about same-sex marriage and parenting. Many of us struggle with our own sexuality and sense of gender because of the influences in our household environments growing up. "

That's truly shocking! Even more so since no children of straight or single parents ever have emotional issues or "struggles" with their sexuality or place in the world. It's outrageous that when they could have had a perfect life, free of internal turmoil and conflict, rosy and peachy keen in all aspects if they had just picked parents who were straight, that over 50 kids had issues. Outrageous. Or in the words of the leading Republican Presidential candidate, "yooooogely disgusting!"

[billy.pilgrim]

Another gay hater. Maybe seth should join up



http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... SAMedition

[rstrong]

Here in Canada we've had same-sex marriage country-wide for over a decade.

And everything has been all rosy and peachy keen.

Did you even bother to read your little wingnut fantasy before you posted it? Because make no mistake, that's what it is. And a particularly stupid one at that.

In Canada, freedoms of speech, press, religion, and association have suffered greatly due to government pressure.

There's your first warning sight right at the top. "By allowing more freedom, you take away freedom."

Granted, there WERE a couple relevant cases around 15 years ago, and these are what those peddling bigotry to the right cling to. But they leave out an important detail:

Canada passed new hate speech laws. There were a couple of high-profile cases using them. The result: The hate crime laws were shot down in court. Turns out that you CAN get up on stage in front of an unsuspecting crowd to talk about a different subject, and instead give a long rant about how the Jews are the cause of all the world's problems, complete with admiration of Hitler trying to "clean up Europe", and that afterword expand on it with more anti-Semitic ranting to reporters.... and it's not a hate crime in Canada.

Yes, he was charged. The new law got tested in court. And it was shot down. Neutered. Neither he nor anyone else would be charged for the same thing today. That's how laws are tested and precedents set in the US also.

But that doesn't stop those peddling fear to gullible right-wingnuts from using it in their on-line fantasies.

When same-sex marriage was legalized in Canada in 2005, parenting was immediately redefined. Canada’s gay marriage law, Bill C-38, included a provision to erase the term “natural parent” and replace it across the board with gender-neutral “legal parent” in federal law.

That was a change long-overdue for reasons having nothing to do with same-sex marriage. Those who are adopted for example, are living with "legal parents" but not "natural parents."

If your beliefs, values, and political opinions are different from the state’s, you risk losing your professional license, job, or business, and even your children. Look no further than the Lev Tahor Sect, an Orthodox Jewish sect. Many members, who had been involved in a bitter custody battle with child protection services, began leaving Chatham, Ontario, for Guatemala in March 2014, to escape prosecution for their religious faith, which conflicted with the Province’s guidelines for religious education.

This isn't even remotely related to same-sex marriage.

Wikipedia: Lev Tahor: Child protection investigation

...girls aged 14–15 were married to old men in the group...
...a pregnant 17-year-old girl said she was beaten by her brother, sexually abused by her father and married by force to a 30-year-old man when she was 15...
...girls as young as 13 who were imprisoned in basements...
...houses that were dirty, had 4-5 children sleeping in one bedroom, some mattresses soaked in urine, and children with fungus on their feet. ...
...the children of the group had not been registered in the local schools, and the children were not educated in accordance with the curriculum required by Quebec law...
...inflicted psychological and physical abuse on teenage girls...

THIS IS WHAT YOUR ARTICLE UPHOLDS AS RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. The religious practices it declares endangered by same-sex marriage.

BTW, the group previously fled the US. Turns out that kidnapping kids isn't a religious freedom enjoyed in the US, so it's not THAT much more free than Canada.

The rest of the article is one chemically-imbalanced fantasy after another. Fodder to be endlessly posted to forums by the gullible and stupid.

[Vrede too]

I am the child of a evangelical father who lived his life filled with hate for everyone who held different beliefs
I described my experiences in my book: Out From Under: The Impact of Far Right Religious Parenting. Over five hundred thousand adult children who were raised by mormon and various so called christian jumping jehovas
in foster parent environments have communicated with me and share my concerns about and supertiousis beliefs and parenting. Many of us struggle with our own morality and grasp of reality because of the hateful influences in our household environments growing up. "

[Seth Milner]

[billy.pilgrim]

Why do do hate the Jews so much

[Seth Milner]

Did you even bother to read your little wingnut fantasy before you posted it?

It really pisses you off when the crap comes from north of the border, doesn't it/ Oh. BTW, it was a joke.

At least Yoda loves you: "The stupid rstrong in this one"

[Seth Milner]

I am the child of a evangelical father who lived his life filled with hate for everyone who held different beliefs
I described my experiences in my book: Out From Under: The Impact of Far Right Religious Parenting. Over five hundred thousand adult children who were raised by mormon and various so called christian jumping jehovas
in foster parent environments have communicated with me and share my concerns about and supertiousis beliefs and parenting. Many of us struggle with our own morality and grasp of reality because of the hateful influences in our household environments growing up. "

When you first edition being published?

[Seth Milner]

Here in Canada we've had same-sex marriage country-wide for over a decade.

And everything has been all rosy and peachy keen.

" I am the daughter of a gay father who died of AIDS. I described my experiences in my book: Out From Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting. Over fifty adult children who were raised by LGBT parents have communicated with me and share my concerns about same-sex marriage and parenting. Many of us struggle with our own sexuality and sense of gender because of the influences in our household environments growing up. "

That's truly shocking! Even more so since no children of straight or single parents ever have emotional issues or "struggles" with their sexuality or place in the world. It's outrageous that when they could have had a perfect life, free of internal turmoil and conflict, rosy and peachy keen in all aspects if they had just picked parents who were straight, that over 50 kids had issues. Outrageous. Or in the words of the leading Republican Presidential candidate, "yooooogely disgusting!"

You should know; it's of Canadian origin.

[Seth Milner]

Another gay hater. Maybe seth should join up
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... SAMedition

No thanks.