The Religion Thread

[Vrede too]

Are you smarter than an atheist? A religious quiz

31 correct- 97%- and I protest the one I got "wrong."

Which one is that? Maybe my "correct" was really wrong.

[Mr.B]

"Because uneducated people are more likely to end up on those evil "welfare" programs and more likely to end up in the overcrowded prisons."
Citations...?
While you're at it, list names of those "highly-educated" people who are serving prison sentences for their crimes ... start with "Bernie" Madoff.

A college Bachelor of Arts in political science. That's quite the "high education" there.

Far Rockaway High School (1956), Hofstra University (1960), Brooklyn Law School, University of Alabama ...
Notice I said "start with" and notice I used " " in describing "highly-educated".
My point being, this individual ended up in prison despite his being more educated than those described in O Really's flattering remarks about home schooled children.

[Mr.B]

In some circles a Bachelors is "highly-educated [sic, no hyphen needed]".

I'll be certain to consult your expertise next time.

[rstrong]

"Because uneducated people are more likely to end up on those evil "welfare" programs and more likely to end up in the overcrowded prisons."
Citations...?
While you're at it, list names of those "highly-educated" people who are serving prison sentences for their crimes ... start with "Bernie" Madoff.

A college Bachelor of Arts in political science. That's quite the "high education" there.

Far Rockaway High School (1956), Hofstra University (1960), Brooklyn Law School, University of Alabama ...

Hofstra College didn't become a university until years later. As for law School and Alabama, "briefly attended" doesn't count for anything.

So, high school and a college Bachelor of Arts. No university. That's pretty average.

[Mr.B]

"Hofstra College didn't become a university until years later. As for law School and Alabama, "briefly attended" doesn't count for anything."
I quoted my source from Wikipedia; personally I don't care if he went to school in Canada;
I merely used him as an example since he was well known.

"So, high school and a college Bachelor of Arts. No university. That's pretty average."
Still, a higher education than O Really's description.

I typed this again, (no copy & paste) much slower this time so that maybe you'd understand...
"My point being, this individual ended up in prison despite his being more educated than those described in O Really's flattering remarks about home schooled children."

[O Really]

O Really never said that only poorly educated people ever went to prison. But it is irrefutable that (a) most in prison are less educated; (b) being poorly educated increases the likelihood one will be incarcerated. You can undoubtedly find some well-educated people who went bankrupt or are living on the street, but being poorly educated greatly increases the chances of being unable to find sustainable work. Maybe part of your logic problem is that you like to think only in black/white, off/on, good/bad... that's not really the way the world works.

[Boatrocker]

Are you smarter than an atheist? A religious quiz

31 correct- 97%- and I protest the one I got "wrong."

Which one is that? Maybe my "correct" was really wrong.

Too lazy to go back thru it now, but it had to do with which religions believe salvation is based on faith alone. I don't include evangelism in that, since they are pretty rigid and assholey about "accepting Jesus-uh as your personal savior!"

[Vrede too]

Aren't "salvation is based on faith alone" and "accepting Jesus-uh as your personal savior!" the same thing?

Unlike most faiths that believe that actions and deeds matter, these folks think that professing faith in Jesus is a Get Out of jail Free card that excuses any evil.

[rstrong]

Aren't "salvation is based on faith alone" and "accepting Jesus-uh as your personal savior!" the same thing?

This has been tested:

Woman who was driving while praying with her eyes closed hits house

The woman told Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office deputies she was praying at the time and had her eyes closed, according to the OCSO.

[O Really]

Oh yeah, I was going to mention that in response to Mr.B's gravestone analogy (birthdate - deathdate, the dash in between is everything you've done that either sends you to heaven or hell)

A lot of fundies will believe "faith alone", citing Paul, who without doubt says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But as much in the Bible, it's not consistent across all writers. Even those who say "faith alone" will often extrapolate that those with faith will (should) behave better, although that's obviously a human opinion not supported by direct quote attributable to the entity who created the universe.

[bannination]

I continue to fail to understand how every god seems to be illiterate and can't write their own instruction manuals.

I'm mean EVERY single one of them.... you'd think one could read and write.

It's almost like every religion and every god are man made.

[Vrede too]

Woman who was driving while praying with her eyes closed hits house

The woman told Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office deputies she was praying at the time and had her eyes closed, according to the OCSO.

Praise the lord, otherwise she might have died when she drove into that house.

[Mr.B]

"O Really never said that only poorly educated people ever went to prison. But it is irrefutable that (a) most in prison are less educated; (b) being poorly educated increases the likelihood one will be incarcerated."
But ... you've not proved that home schooled kids are poorly educated and deserve the ridicule you heaped upon them.
Granted, the link I provided shows that not all states require stringent requirements for home schooling, but that doesn't mean those states have poorly-educated children as compared to states with stricter standards.

"You can undoubtedly find some well-educated people who went bankrupt or are living on the street, but being poorly educated greatly increases the chances of being unable to find sustainable work."
Agreed.
Poorly educated are also drop-outs; those who had no desire to better themselves and quit school; or sadly, were too poor to stay in school.

"Maybe part of your logic problem is that you like to think only in black/white, off/on, good/bad... that's not really the way the world works."

I disagree. In this day and time, that's exactly how it works.
The reason home schoolers are looked down upon, namely by the non-religious, is because of the attitudes that billydot has already expressed;
home schoolers receive some public assistance, the majority of home schooling is chosen as an alternative to public schooling because of religious, personal, or moral convictions; which the non-religious disagree with. Because most home schoolers are Christian, that too draws the ire of the non-religious because churches are tax-exempt. Unfortunately, when that became law, the loopholes were overlooked and any moonbat cult or whatever can claim to be a church and get tax exemption. The constitution also has a loophole in defining a church ....

It's sort of like Newton's Third Law of Motion ... "for every force there is an equal and opposite force"; for every good intention, there is an equally opposing intention .... a law is passed to benefit a religious body; the non-religious spit and fume over it; a good Samaritan helps an injured person, and gets sued, give someone free food and get sued because they got sick off of it ... and so on.

[Mr.B]

In some circles a Bachelors is "highly-educated [sic, no hyphen needed]".

Grammar Police ...

[O Really]

]But ... you've not proved that home schooled kids are poorly educated and deserve the ridicule you heaped upon them.

I don't have to, and wouldn't claim that all home schooled kids are in fact poorly educated. But because there are no consistent standards and monitoring, how would we know? I do know that any kid, attending any type of school anywhere, who does not get a broad exposure to the best information available and is not taught to think independently is getting a poor education.

You stated one reason why some people object to/criticize home schooling. Some, including me, don't like public funds spent on private education outside of a real school. Some, including me, would like the state(s) to do a better job of managing education of all types, and including home schooling. Not all home schoolers are religion-based. A lot of people home school because they have jobs requiring constant travel; or because their kid has social or emotional issues that keep him from being successful in a standard school environment; or because the kid is involved in big-time sports or some other activity that makes a fixed school schedule difficult. Or this...or that... Lots of reasons. But IMNVHO, all of them should be better regulated. I'd require all parents wanting to home-school to attend a minimal training program and get a modified form of teaching certificate. I'd require them to turn in a curriculum - like real teachers/schools have to do. I'd require the home students to take the same achievement tests as those in schools. And yes, if they want to home-school religion or gymnastics or national travel, fine. But they would have to do it as supplemental courses in addition to math, language arts, and science. What's wrong with that?

[Vrede too]

Here's one study, there are probably better and more current ones out there.

First Year College Performance: A Study of Home School Graduates and Traditional School Graduates

Jones, Paul; Gloeckner, Gene
Journal of College Admission, n183 p17-20 Spr 2004

The purpose of this study was to determine differences, in first-year college academic performance, between home school and traditional high school graduates, measured by grade point average, retention, ACT test scores, and credits. To accomplish the purpose, nine null hypotheses were tested to determine if there were differences between home school graduates and traditional high school graduates. The results were: No significant difference in first-year grade point averages; No significant difference in college retention during their first-year (fall to spring semester); No significant difference in first-year credit hours earned; No significant difference in the ACT Composite scores; No significant difference in the ACT English test scores; No significant difference in the ACT Mathematics test; No significant difference in the ACT Reading test scores; No significant difference in the ACT Science Reasoning test scores; and No correlation between the variables: first-year grade point average, first year earned credit hours, first-year retention, and the ACT Composite test score.

Not that surprising to me. After all they are getting much, much more personal attention from their teacher. In fact, that should put them ahead of their peers if the teaching was as competent as in regular school. That is just academics, other studies suggest that they are behind in social and teamwork skills, and there are school resources and tech that they were never exposed to.

I don't worry much about home schooling. Relatively few families can sacrifice a breadwinner or whatever other productive thing the parent/teacher could have been doing. If they want to be wasteful fools for the same outcome, so be it. Plus, home school families rarely get taxpayer support.

Voucher schools, otoh, have reduced accountability and oversight, and aren't performing better despite cherry picking their students. Some indoctrinate in scientific and other nonsense, little different from Muslim madrassas, while expecting me to pay for it. Nope.

[Vrede too]

Wussy response as usual. Whine, twice!, about my noticing the hilarious and ironic screw up of a phrase including the word "educated", while running shrieking away from his more significant screw up in ridiculously demanding citations for the uber-obvious. School/parents/peers/Navy, etc. clearly never taught him personal responsibility when he flubs, poor thing.

In some circles a Bachelors is "highly-educated [sic, no hyphen needed]".

It's so obvious and well known that it shouldn't need citations. It's also way easy to search.

education level - welfare

education level - prison

Gee, look at all those citations. Mr.B fails common sense, knowing how credible O Really is, the difference between stats and anecdotes, education and initiative, again.

Then, there's the fact that Mr.B does as much or more grammar policing. His desperate projection is adorable!

[O Really]

The study has interesting information. I'm thinking, though, that since the comparison was among only people who were actually enrolled (and thus had qualified to be accepted), then a difference might be expected to be low. Sort of like comparing scholarship athletes as to whether they came from small high schools or big high schools. I'm guessing - guessing - that the size of high school would not be much of a predictor of college success, since everyone in the study would have been good enough to earn a scholarship. But then ask, are more scholarship athletes from big high schools or small ones. I'm guessing - guessing - that a higher percentage of big high school athletes win a college scholarship than from small schools. So I think if we looked not at performance once the student is enrolled, but in acceptance rates, we might see a difference.

Good point on the extra attention. That would certainly make a difference IF the teacher was any good to start with and the student didn't tune out the teacher just because she's 13 and parents are, like, sooo lame.

[Vrede too]

The study has interesting information. I'm thinking, though, that since the comparison was among only people who were actually enrolled (and thus had qualified to be accepted), then a difference might be expected to be low....

Good point, it was just the first one study came across. Apple and oranges regardless of study. Imagine the results if a highly qualified public school teacher was doing full time 1:1 education. Home schooling may hurt some kids and help others, but it ain't very economical or efficient when NC can't even manage to pay teachers enough that are teaching dozens of kids at a time.

[Boatrocker]

Aren't "salvation is based on faith alone" and "accepting Jesus-uh as your personal savior!" the same thing?

Unlike most faiths that believe that actions and deeds matter, these folks think that professing faith in Jesus is a Get Out of jail Free card that excuses any evil.

In my experience, I included the mandatory public profession (so your peers could judge your sincerity), baptism (ritual bullshit) and tithing a church-approved amount (extortion). But your well-taken point about "faith" being enough without actually going to the trouble to live by Xtian values is accurate.