Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

[Ulysses]

Not nearly as many as Nixon or small Bush or Obama.

Then again, there never was a president Wallace. Thank God.

And IMHO, Obama was a very good president. So you really should not group him with Dubya or Nixon.

[neoplacebo]

Not nearly as many as Nixon or small Bush or Obama.

Then again, there never was a president Wallace. Thank God.

And IMHO, Obama was a very good president. So you really should not group him with Dubya or Nixon.

He deported a lot of people. I figure it ruined some lives and caused some ancillary angst in other lives.

[Ulysses]

Not nearly as many as Nixon or small Bush or Obama.

Then again, there never was a president Wallace. Thank God.

And IMHO, Obama was a very good president. So you really should not group him with Dubya or Nixon.

He deported a lot of people. I figure it ruined some lives and caused some ancillary angst in other lives.

So, who created the Secure Communities program?

[Vrede too]

So, who created the Secure Communities program?

Irrelevant deflection, pussy. Obama did deport more Latinos than any POTUS before him. Whether 45SHOLE then deported more - citation needed - doesn't change what Obama did. Did you not notice all of the immigration activism during the Obama years? Figures.

[neoplacebo]

Not nearly as many as Nixon or small Bush or Obama.

Then again, there never was a president Wallace. Thank God.

And IMHO, Obama was a very good president. So you really should not group him with Dubya or Nixon.

He deported a lot of people. I figure it ruined some lives and caused some ancillary angst in other lives.

So, who created the Secure Communities program?

Don't know. But it sounds like it has a lot of potential for abuse depending on what the definition of a secure community is. Now tell me it was Obama and that it's a great thing. Or maybe it was just a ploy to send more military type equipment to local law enforcement. I'll still piss on your grave.

[Ulysses]

The Secure Communities program was started not by Obama, but by his predecessor, Dubya.

Try to keep up.

[Vrede too]

The Secure Communities program was started not by Obama, but by his predecessor, Dubya.

Try to keep up.

Actually:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Co ... es#History

Secure Communities was piloted in 2008. Under the administration of George W. Bush, ICE recruited a total of 14 jurisdictions. The first program partner was Harris County Sheriff's Office (Texas).

By March 2011, under President Barack Obama, the program was expanded to over 1,210 jurisdictions. ICE seeks to have all 3,141 jurisdictions (state, county, and local jails and prisons) participating by 2013.

From Secure Communities' activation through March 2011, 140,396 convicted criminal aliens have been booked into ICE custody resulting in 72,445 deportations....

Your own moronic deflection is a failure. Awww.

[Ulysses]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla is also a hotbed of age discrimination. Goes along with the frat house atmosphere.

Black Workers Say Racism Is Rampant Inside Tesla. Now California Is Suing.

Last week, former Tesla employee Kaylen Barker filed a lawsuit against the electric carmaker for allegedly disregarding her complaints of racial discrimination, saying that “being a Black worker at a Tesla’s renowned California factory, is to be forced to step back in time and suffer painful abuses reminiscent of the Jim Crow Era.”

The 25-year-old, who is Black and gay, claims a white coworker at the company’s Lathrop plant called her the N-word and assaulted her with a hot grinding tool. After Barker complained to human resources, Tesla allegedly retaliated by withholding her wages.

Barker’s civil suit is one of multiple cases in recent months to paint a disturbing picture of a hostile work environment for women and people of color at the clean-energy giant’s factories. And it comes a mere four months after a jury awarded another former employee, Owen Diaz, nearly $137 million over racism he encountered in the workplace which included coworkers hurling racial epithets and telling him to “go back to Africa.”
...

Tesla is also facing down multiple sexual harassment lawsuits, including one from night shift worker Jessica Barraza, who compared the Fremont factory to a “frat house” and said that “rampant sexual harassment,” a proposition from a male supervisor, and unwanted physical touching from coworkers left her with severe panic attacks and post-traumatic stress.

...

Indeed:

Tesla is being sued for age discrimination by a former engineer

Finding a job in your 60s is hard anywhere, but apparently more so in the fast-paced tech industry where age discrimination is often brought up in court cases. The latest company to be accused of such a practice is Tesla Motors. 69-year-old Thomas Flessner, a former Materials Engineer at Tesla, is suing the automaker for age discrimination after being fired earlier this year.

Flessner, who had been with the company for over 3 years when he was fired in February 2016, claims that he “was isolated due to his age and routinely chastised for completing projects slower than his coworkers”, according to the lawsuit (via Fusion).

The engineer claims to have been working as hard as anyone else on the team, but that he was “singled-out” by his former boss and Sr. Manager of Materials Engineering at Tesla, Paul Edwards, who is repeatedly named in the lawsuit.

The complaint says:

“Furthermore, the younger engineers were not criticized for the speed of their work by [supervisor Paul] Edwards even though they did not accomplish their projects any faster than plaintiff.”

...

Tesla sounds like a bad employer for both people of color and older workers.

[O Really]

I don't doubt there would be race/age/gender discrimination issues at a fast-moving tech company with the "frat boy" atmosphere, but 69-year-old Thomas Flessner might not be the best example. He had only been there 3 years, so that means they hired him when he was 66ish. IF the manager who ran him off wasn't the same as the one who hired him, AND if his performance hadn't been criticized before the new manager, then maybe he has a viable case. But if the same guy who hired him ran him off after three years with some reasonable documentation of his performance, then his age claim has severe holes.

[Ulysses]

Former Tesla employees accuse co. of antigay harassment, age discrimination & failure to pay wages in lawsuit

Three former employees of Tesla’s energy sales division have filed a lawsuit alleging antigay harassment, age discrimination, failure to pay them for all hours worked, and retaliation for complaining about working conditions and fake sales accounts created by other employees.

All three were San-Diego-based sales representatives for solar panels, a business Tesla entered by acquiring SolarCity in November 2016. All three were let go by the company at the end of May 2017, according to the suit, a copy of which was obtained by The Advocate.

...

In the suit, filed last Wednesday in California Superior Court for San Diego County, one of the employees, Andrew Staples, who is gay, alleges that he was subjected to repeated antigay harassment by a supervisor from another department. This person, identified in the suit as Grant Katzenellenbogen, called Staples names including “bitch,” “pussy,” and “faggot,” the filing relates, “on numerous different days throughout his employment.”

...

Ray, who was terminated last year at age 59, alleges age discrimination, also banned by California law. He was told his job was being eliminated as part of a mass layoff, but the mass layoff affected a different set of employees, he contends in the suit. He says his position was actually not eliminated, and he was replaced with an employee who was under 30 years old.

...

yeah, just a fluke?

[O Really]

These guys have better cases, on the surface, than Flessner.

[billy.pilgrim]

Wallace said:

In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

And more. I'd say he was basically racist, but also put on a show for what he thought was in his political interest.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperi ... orever.%22

Wasn't he more of a product of his place and time? To have grown up where he did under tough conditions, the percentage of whites who were u racists was probably well over 90%. He may well have been one of the few who later made even a half-assed attempt to admit that he was wrong.

I grew up in what was called a damn liberal university town in central Alabama - but with segregated schools, white only neighborhoods, restaurants and bathrooms.
How do most of these people not develop racists ideas?
In many ways it was a conundrum. How do you recognize that equality extends to everyone when you've only seen blacks as maids and janitors, or with a shovel on construction sites? At some point a few saw the wrongness as teenagers, others in the military and some, like Wallace, late in life, but many, maybe most, lived and still live in their insulated little worlds. The idiots with their confederate and nazi flags are no larger group here than elsewhere.
That isn't the racism that 3 in 10 in Alabama live with daily, keeping them out of jobs and schools, that insidious racism is polite and quiet. That's the know your audience racism that allowed Jeff Sessions to feel comfortable making a joke to a table full of white people about a recent lynching in Mobile, or even the same racism of today's republican party, or police departments and even the military.

To me, Wallace is more of a take away what little good that you can and hope that it helps create an understanding.
Although John Newton's transformation to preacher and hymn writer contributed more toward uniting people for change than did Wallace's meager apology, the hymn writer did start as a slave runner, Wallace a racist.
They both admitted that they were wrong.

[Ulysses]

These guys have better cases, on the surface, than Flessner.

So what? Flessner was but one of at least five other cases, at least one of which was over age discrimination.

I interviewed at Telsa about ten years ago. The interview was in Palo Alto. It was weird, because the job would have been in Fremont. I noticed the interviewers were about half my age. Never occured to me that they might have a problem with my age, but now I wonder. I didn't pursue it.

[Vrede too]

These guys have better cases, on the surface, than Flessner.

So what? ...

Employment law expert, which you are not, O Really is merely offering his opinion. Why are you whining about it?

[neoplacebo]

Wallace said:

In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."

And more. I'd say he was basically racist, but also put on a show for what he thought was in his political interest.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperi ... orever.%22

Wasn't he more of a product of his place and time? To have grown up where he did under tough conditions, the percentage of whites who were u racists was probably well over 90%. He may well have been one of the few who later made even a half-assed attempt to admit that he was wrong.

I grew up in what was called a damn liberal university town in central Alabama - but with segregated schools, white only neighborhoods, restaurants and bathrooms.
How do most of these people not develop racists ideas?
In many ways it was a conundrum. How do you recognize that equality extends to everyone when you've only seen blacks as maids and janitors, or with a shovel on construction sites? At some point a few saw the wrongness as teenagers, others in the military and some, like Wallace, late in life, but many, maybe most, lived and still live in their insulated little worlds. The idiots with their confederate and nazi flags are no larger group here than elsewhere.
That isn't the racism that 3 in 10 in Alabama live with daily, keeping them out of jobs and schools, that insidious racism is polite and quiet. That's the know your audience racism that allowed Jeff Sessions to feel comfortable making a joke to a table full of white people about a recent lynching in Mobile, or even the same racism of today's republican party, or police departments and even the military.

To me, Wallace is more of a take away what little good that you can and hope that it helps create an understanding.
Although John Newton's transformation to preacher and hymn writer contributed more toward uniting people for change than did Wallace's meager apology, the hymn writer did start as a slave runner, Wallace a racist.
They both admitted that they were wrong.

I'm currently reading "Justice Rising: Robert Kennedy's America in Black and White" by Patricia Sullivan. When Wallace stood in the doorway at the University of Alabama to prevent two black students from enrolling, he was performing a stunt for the rednecks. Prior to the day those students were set to register, the Justice Department (RFK) had a federal judge inform Wallace that if he tried to prevent the students' enrollment, he would be facing about six months in jail and a considerable fine. Another historical shameful fact: the public schools in Prince Edward County VA were closed for five years after the 1954 Brown vs Board of Education ruling as a way of not complying with the law.

[O Really]

These guys have better cases, on the surface, than Flessner.

So what? ...

Employment law expert, which you are not, O Really is merely offering his opinion. Why are you whining about it?

Somebody writes an article, based largely on what somebody - often the plaintiff - says, and a casual reader might conclude that the company mentioned - Tesla in this case - is evil incarnate as well as in deep shit. Both of those might be true, but certainly aren't proven by the original article. For a variety of reasons, age discrimination is very difficult to prove even though everyone knows it exists. Age discrimination claims have to be processed through the EEOC before the claimant can go to court. So one of the facts not mentioned in the Flessner article is that he had already had his claim at least partly rejected by the EEOC, who had then issued him a "right to sue" letter. That's what the EEOC does when they've looked at a case and determined (for example) that maybe there's something to it, maybe not, but they don't have enough evidence to call it, and don't have the resources to chase it further. Age cases have been won without favourable EEOC determinations, but not many.

So I thought I'd point out that while anyone can sue most anyone else for most anything, that the announcement of a lawsuit itself usually means little with regard to the actual facts and circumstances. It's usually an attempt to try the case in the court of public opinion.

[billy.pilgrim]

These guys have better cases, on the surface, than Flessner.

So what? ...

Employment law expert, which you are not, O Really is merely offering his opinion. Why are you whining about it?

Somebody writes an article, based largely on what somebody - often the plaintiff - says, and a casual reader might conclude that the company mentioned - Tesla in this case - is evil incarnate as well as in deep shit. Both of those might be true, but certainly aren't proven by the original article. For a variety of reasons, age discrimination is very difficult to prove even though everyone knows it exists. Age discrimination claims have to be processed through the EEOC before the claimant can go to court. So one of the facts not mentioned in the Flessner article is that he had already had his claim at least partly rejected by the EEOC, who had then issued him a "right to sue" letter. That's what the EEOC does when they've looked at a case and determined (for example) that maybe there's something to it, maybe not, but they don't have enough evidence to call it, and don't have the resources to chase it further. Age cases have been won without favourable EEOC determinations, but not many.

So I thought I'd point out that while anyone can sue most anyone else for most anything, that the announcement of a lawsuit itself usually means little with regard to the actual facts and circumstances. It's usually an attempt to try the case in the court of public opinion.

Who knows at this point

https://www.tesla.com/blog/dfehs-misguided-lawsuit

"The California Department of Fair Employment and Housing (DFEH) intends to file a lawsuit against Tesla alleging systematic racial discrimination and harassment. This follows a three-year investigation during which the DFEH—whose mission is supposedly to protect workers—has never once raised any concern about current workplace practices at Tesla. Rather, the lawsuit appears focused on alleged misconduct by production associates at the Fremont factory that took place between 2015 and 2019."

"Over the past five years, the DFEH has been asked on almost 50 occasions by individuals who believe they were discriminated against or harassed to investigate Tesla. On every single occasion, when the DFEH closed an investigation, it did not find misconduct against Tesla. It therefore strains credibility for the agency to now allege, after a three-year investigation, that systematic racial discrimination and harassment somehow existed at Tesla. A narrative spun by the DFEH and a handful of plaintiff firms to generate publicity is not factual proof."

[Ulysses]

These guys have better cases, on the surface, than Flessner.

So what? ...

Somebody writes an article, based largely on what somebody - often the plaintiff - says, and a casual reader might conclude that the company mentioned - Tesla in this case - is evil incarnate as well as in deep shit. Both of those might be true, but certainly aren't proven by the original article. For a variety of reasons, age discrimination is very difficult to prove even though everyone knows it exists. Age discrimination claims have to be processed through the EEOC before the claimant can go to court. So one of the facts not mentioned in the Flessner article is that he had already had his claim at least partly rejected by the EEOC, who had then issued him a "right to sue" letter. That's what the EEOC does when they've looked at a case and determined (for example) that maybe there's something to it, maybe not, but they don't have enough evidence to call it, and don't have the resources to chase it further. Age cases have been won without favourable EEOC determinations, but not many.

So I thought I'd point out that while anyone can sue most anyone else for most anything, that the announcement of a lawsuit itself usually means little with regard to the actual facts and circumstances. It's usually an attempt to try the case in the court of public opinion.

That's all well and good. But the evidence so far seems to indicate a pattern at Tesla to discriminate against older workers. It may well be due to Musk's own prejudices. He seems like an odd bird. My own experience with Tesla, limited as it is, seems to support the notion that they discriminate against older folk. Add to that the cases alleging racial discrimination, not good. Should this discrimination turn out to be verified, it could adversely affect their sales. Especially since the American population average age seems to be increasing. IMHO, this situation bears further examination. Were I in the market for an EV, I'd certainly look at other options besides Tesla, based on how the company may be run, and how it treats, or mistreats, its workforce.

YMMV

[O Really]

"Evidence so far..." ??
If employment discrimination claims are your criteria for selecting a car, you might want to get rid of those Chrysler Corporation vehicles. But don't replace them with anything General Motors or Ford made. Probably don't want a BMW, either.

[Ulysses]

"Evidence so far..." ??
If employment discrimination claims are your criteria for selecting a car, you might want to get rid of those Chrysler Corporation vehicles. But don't replace them with anything General Motors or Ford made. Probably don't want a BMW, either.

Were I a self-righteous "woke" person like you know who, I'd agree. But I'm not. Praise the Lord.

Except my Chrysler/Mitsubishi/GM/Honda/Kawasaki/Yamaha vehicles are already paid for, most were bought used, and I don't see the point in getting rid of them 25 years after the fact. That would be just silly. Perhaps you could peddle your recommendation to you know who?

Besides, I'm not aware of Chrysler/GM/Ford facing state lawsuits over alleged discrimination:

Horrific allegations of racism prompt California lawsuit against Tesla

Ever heard of the LA Times?

The N-word and other racist slurs were hurled daily at Black workers at Tesla’s California plant, delivered not just by fellow employees but also by managers and supervisors.

So says California’s civil rights agency in a lawsuit filed against the electric-vehicle maker in Alameda County Superior Court on Thursday on behalf of thousands of Black workers after a decade of complaints and a 32-month investigation.

Tesla segregated Black workers into separate areas that its employees referred to as “porch monkey stations,” “the dark side,” “the slave ship” and “the plantation,” the lawsuit alleges.

Graffiti — including “KKK,” “Go back to Africa,” the hangman’s noose, the Confederate Flag and “F-- [N-word]” — were carved into restroom walls, workplace benches and lunch tables and were slow to be erased, the lawsuit says.

Now, doesn't Elon Musk hail from South Africa? That hotbed of racial equality?