Progress and other good Coronavirus news

[Vrede too]

... Another idea I had is to put distressed patients in an area of negative air pressure....this is how hot labs are configured, as it prevents anything from inside getting out or anything outside from getting in. The same concept I apply to the act of breathing in the sense that I assume it would be easier to breathe in a lower air pressure environment....

Exactly the opposite for a few reasons:

The external air pressure exerted on the exterior of the chest wall is negligible relative to the ribs framework and respiratory musculature.
You want higher pressures to force air in through any internal resistance.
Lower air pressure = less oxygen per volume, essentially the same as taking folks higher in altitude.

[Vrede too]

So why isn't the big dumbass hyping some contest for innovative ideas? the ratings would be huge, bigger than any before and after.

I will guess that he's afraid that someone (other than him) will be given credit for anything positive that may happen. Besides, he's already got Jared the whirling dervish bull bugging the health professionals with lame brain ideas and dipshit schemes that they have to stop what they're doing and explain to him why his idea won't work or why his idea is fucking stupid.

Yep. Every time PINO or Klan has an idea either someone steps forward and points out that it's already being done by the experts, or someone else has to point out that he's prematurely jumping on an anecdotal bandwagon.

Not sure how a contest would help. So many people are already working on this globally.

[Vrede too]

... Anyway, I have medical coverage so if I need a respirator I'll be hoping my plan will get me one. I did scope out oxygen generators (expensive) and oxygen bottles (might have one of those in the shop already as part of a welding kit I got a while ago).

AFAIK ventilators are not being allocated based on ability to pay, nor does coverage bump you up in the line. You just have to be sick enough in a place that has them available.

I don't think that oxygen bottles for torches are suitable for medical oxygen - purity and sterility issues - but I'm not sure.

[Vrede too]

Well, my whole point is that something like a respirator should not be that difficult to make, and that the lack of enough of them should not be a cause for panic. We both concur that it is a relatively simple device. Actually, just an oxygen tank with the right type of pressure regulator and connective lines could serve as a respirator. If I remember correctly, when I was in the hospital for the bypass surgery, they put an oxygen line around my head with two little nozzles that fit under your nose. The other end was hooked to a socket on the wall, which in turn had to have been a connection to a bank of oxygen tanks and pressure regulators located somewhere else in the hospital. Granted, this arrangement does not constitute a "respirator" in the sense that there's no "assist" to the delivery of the oxygen, but that, too, is just a matter of regulating pressure or even just alternating the correct amount of pressure (assist) with no pressure (no assist) at the appropriate intervals of time....

They're much more complex than that - correct pressure, correct volume, correct frequency, residual pressure at the end of a breath to keep alveoli inflated or not. Then, there are all the sensors providing feedback to therapists for further adjustments, and alarms for when things ain't right.

[neoplacebo]

... Another idea I had is to put distressed patients in an area of negative air pressure....this is how hot labs are configured, as it prevents anything from inside getting out or anything outside from getting in. The same concept I apply to the act of breathing in the sense that I assume it would be easier to breathe in a lower air pressure environment....

Exactly the opposite for a few reasons:

The external air pressure exerted on the exterior of the chest wall is negligible relative to the ribs framework and respiratory musculature.
You want higher pressures to force air in through any internal resistance.
Lower air pressure = less oxygen per volume, essentially the same as taking folks higher in altitude.

Doh! Guess that's why I'm not working in a medical or health care facility. But strangely enough, it does seem to qualify me to be there at a trump virus pep rally promoting crazy ideas not even realizing they're crazy ideas.

[neoplacebo]

Well, my whole point is that something like a respirator should not be that difficult to make, and that the lack of enough of them should not be a cause for panic. We both concur that it is a relatively simple device. Actually, just an oxygen tank with the right type of pressure regulator and connective lines could serve as a respirator. If I remember correctly, when I was in the hospital for the bypass surgery, they put an oxygen line around my head with two little nozzles that fit under your nose. The other end was hooked to a socket on the wall, which in turn had to have been a connection to a bank of oxygen tanks and pressure regulators located somewhere else in the hospital. Granted, this arrangement does not constitute a "respirator" in the sense that there's no "assist" to the delivery of the oxygen, but that, too, is just a matter of regulating pressure or even just alternating the correct amount of pressure (assist) with no pressure (no assist) at the appropriate intervals of time....

They're much more complex than that - correct pressure, correct volume, correct frequency, residual pressure at the end of a breath to keep alveoli inflated or not. Then, there are all the sensors providing feedback to therapists for further adjustments, and alarms for when things ain't right.

Oh, I'm sure they are. But I will be willing to bet that the basic concept of the thing, likely developed on some battlefield by military doctors sometime in the past, is an electro mechanical pump that is servo controlled and programmed to operate a certain way and has moderate adjustment ability to accommodate various respiratory capacities and rates. This is why GM and Tesla can reasonably expect to make such devices. With the sophisticated pump and the computer software to operate it in a way to simulate human respiration, the only other thing needed is some sort of sealed faceplate, mask, bubble, etc for the patient to wear. I'm sure that I am likely oversimplifying all this, especially to a medical professional like you were and are, but it just seems to me that this type of machine, assuming it's coupled with the computer power to operate it correctly, should not be too much of a challenge to make. Maybe I am Jared Kushner wrong on this, and may very well be.

[Vrede too]

Oh, I'm sure they are. But I will be willing to bet that the basic concept of the thing, likely developed on some battlefield by military doctors sometime in the past, is an electro mechanical pump that is servo controlled and programmed to operate a certain way and has moderate adjustment ability to accommodate various respiratory capacities and rates. This is why GM and Tesla can reasonably expect to make such devices. With the sophisticated pump and the computer software to operate it in a way to simulate human respiration, the only other thing needed is some sort of sealed faceplate, mask, bubble, etc for the patient to wear. I'm sure that I am likely oversimplifying all this, especially to a medical professional like you were and are, but it just seems to me that this type of machine, assuming it's coupled with the computer power to operate it correctly, should not be too much of a challenge to make. Maybe I am Jared Kushner wrong on this, and may very well be.

Anything operating a mask is indeed far less complex. The patient is still doing the work of breathing, with the machine merely providing some amount of extra pressure and adding oxygen. This is what CPAP (continuous positive airway pressure) machines do, but I've not heard that there's any shortage of them.

It's the ventilators for tubed patients that are and have to be much more complicated, and that we may run out of.

[neoplacebo]

Oh, I'm sure they are. But I will be willing to bet that the basic concept of the thing, likely developed on some battlefield by military doctors sometime in the past, is an electro mechanical pump that is servo controlled and programmed to operate a certain way and has moderate adjustment ability to accommodate various respiratory capacities and rates. This is why GM and Tesla can reasonably expect to make such devices. With the sophisticated pump and the computer software to operate it in a way to simulate human respiration, the only other thing needed is some sort of sealed faceplate, mask, bubble, etc for the patient to wear. I'm sure that I am likely oversimplifying all this, especially to a medical professional like you were and are, but it just seems to me that this type of machine, assuming it's coupled with the computer power to operate it correctly, should not be too much of a challenge to make. Maybe I am Jared Kushner wrong on this, and may very well be.

Anything operating a mask is indeed far less complex. The patient is still doing the work of breathing, with the machine merely providing some amount of extra pressure and adding oxygen. This is what CPAP (continuous positive airway pressure) machines do, but I've not heard that there's any shortage of them.

It's the ventilators for tubed patients that are and have to be much more complicated, and that we may run out of.

Ok, I've not actually ever seen someone in a ventilator unless those folks in Italy I saw on tv were in them. What I saw was people with their entire heads and upper chest area encased in some sort of transparent plastic film bubble type rig.....couldn't tell if they had actual tubes in their airway though. I am a ventilator novice, but have a mechanical type of mind. Sometimes I can even hear it working.

[Vrede too]

Ok, I've not actually ever seen someone in a ventilator unless those folks in Italy I saw on tv were in them. What I saw was people with their entire heads and upper chest area encased in some sort of transparent plastic film bubble type rig.....couldn't tell if they had actual tubes in their airway though. I am a ventilator novice, but have a mechanical type of mind. Sometimes I can even hear it working.

Not sure what you saw. Could be some sort of small oxygen tent or protective screening for staff, etc.

A ventilated patient has a tube coming out of their mouth, nose or sometimes the ventilator is attached to the throat. The other end of the tube is below the larynx and vocal cords in the mainstem bronchus.

[billy.pilgrim]

Here's another good one that president shithead isn't talking about.

The dumbass needs to be applauding innovation.

https://www.pnj.com/story/news/2020/04/ ... 939225001/

[Vrede too]

Ok, I've not actually ever seen someone in a ventilator unless those folks in Italy I saw on tv were in them. What I saw was people with their entire heads and upper chest area encased in some sort of transparent plastic film bubble type rig.....couldn't tell if they had actual tubes in their airway though. I am a ventilator novice, but have a mechanical type of mind. Sometimes I can even hear it working.

Oral intubation:



Nasal intubation:


(the other tube empties the stomach)

Tracheal intubation:

[Vrede too]

You don't think that if someone with $$$ or a high government position, and needs a ventilator, they won't be bumped to the front of the line?

Let's not be naive about what constitutes power in America.

If you are at that level of wealth or power I retract my post.

But, if you're just insured it's not like your insurance company will be fighting for you in order to cover your ventilation.

[Vrede too]

You don't think that if someone with $$$ or a high government position, and needs a ventilator, they won't be bumped to the front of the line?

Let's not be naive about what constitutes power in America.

If you are at that level of wealth or power I retract my post.

But, if you're just insured it's not like your insurance company will be fighting for you in order to cover your ventilation.

WTF? I'm starting to understand why you PO Billy so much. Where did I say my insurance company would be fighting for me to get a ventilator? All I said is that I hope that IF I needed one I would get one. The fact that I'm insured would probably make it more likely than, say, somebody with zero health insurance and no ability to pay out of pocket.

Try not to parse other people's posts to turn them into nonsense just so you can jump down their throats, M'Kay?

PS-I admit I incorrectly sometimes referred to ventilator as respirator. My bad. I thought I had corrected all those. So sue me.

You sure are sensitive. You clearly implied the belief that your insured status should get you lifesaving care that others won't get. You're just backtracking after getting busted.

All I was doing was agreeing with you that money and power get you more stuff from the healthcare system, but they are things that someone has to wield effectively. However, in my expert opinion your just having insurance does not get you a ventilator before others that are sicker and uninsured. It's a notation on a form, not money or power that will go to bat for you. In fact, the insurance company has every incentive to not advocate for expensive care. Sure, insurance will get you elective care, but there are lots of disincentives on the hospitals' end to keep them from getting caught killing off the poor, and frankly I find your expectation that's what they should do to be offensive.

"Let's not be naive about what" causes scandals "in America." You need to look up EMTALA. It is specifically illegal for ERs, their staff and hospitals to make emergent decisions based on ability to pay, and in my career I never saw anyone break that law in the way that you want them to, certainly not when a life was on the line. You're throwing yet another tantrum purely out of your ignorance.

Now, please educate all of us on your expertise on this topic.

[Vrede too]

... Now, please educate all of us on your expertise on this topic.

I knew that you would cower from the challenge, you always do.

You tried to tell all of us, including a career emergency nurse, that basic humanity, all principles of ethics and even very detailed and specific law should be chucked out the window in order to save your life first because you're "special" enough to be insured. Sorry, but that's not how the system works, is allowed to work or should work.

So sad for you that there's someone here that knows better. Awwww.

[neoplacebo]

When I went to the hospital from work on a Thursday, it was two days before Christmas. Once I was in and went through some tests and processing, the doctor came in and showed me with a drawing he made of how some arteries were partially or totally blocked and told me what he needed to do to fix it. I did not want to be there and asked if maybe I could come back Monday after I had a chance to take care of some things at my house. The doc was like "oh, no, we have to do this right away; you could die if we don't." So I said ok. About two hours after this, the doctor came back to my room and said "we're having trouble verifying your insurance information and you might want to consider postponing this." Keep in mind that it's two days before Christmas; not sure what was going on with my insurance company or why the hospital could not determine that I was insured. And remember that a little while earlier, I myself wanted to postpone this but was overruled. So when the doctor told me about how the hospital was having "trouble" figuring out if I had medical insurance, I proceeded to tell him that ".....I see what your fucking priority is." I also had a few other comments. In any case, the hospital finally was convinced I did have insurance and I had the bypass surgery and stayed in the hospital for five and a half days. The total cost of this was a little over $111,000 and I had to pay a little less than four thousand of that. The whole thing sort of confirmed my long held suspicion about the health care system in this country. And from what vredo too says, this doctor was breaking the law when he placed my likely ability to pay for care as more important than saving my life.

[neoplacebo]

A story about making ventilators.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-fancy-wo ... 20379.html

[neoplacebo]

A story about making ventilators.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-fancy-wo ... 20379.html

Huh. Garden hose, lamp timer, and "electronic valve". In MIssissippi. I guess. I'll wait.

Evidently, ideas now and then waft over and into Mississippi and sometimes one of them is caught.

[billy.pilgrim]

When I went to the hospital from work on a Thursday, it was two days before Christmas. Once I was in and went through some tests and processing, the doctor came in and showed me with a drawing he made of how some arteries were partially or totally blocked and told me what he needed to do to fix it. I did not want to be there and asked if maybe I could come back Monday after I had a chance to take care of some things at my house. The doc was like "oh, no, we have to do this right away; you could die if we don't." So I said ok. About two hours after this, the doctor came back to my room and said "we're having trouble verifying your insurance information and you might want to consider postponing this." Keep in mind that it's two days before Christmas; not sure what was going on with my insurance company or why the hospital could not determine that I was insured. And remember that a little while earlier, I myself wanted to postpone this but was overruled. So when the doctor told me about how the hospital was having "trouble" figuring out if I had medical insurance, I proceeded to tell him that ".....I see what your fucking priority is." I also had a few other comments. In any case, the hospital finally was convinced I did have insurance and I had the bypass surgery and stayed in the hospital for five and a half days. The total cost of this was a little over $111,000 and I had to pay a little less than four thousand of that. The whole thing sort of confirmed my long held suspicion about the health care system in this country. And from what vredo too says, this doctor was breaking the law when he placed my likely ability to pay for care as more important than saving my life.

I've had a similar experience after a hospital was incorrectly informed that I didn't have insurance, but never with ER or nurses. As I remember, it was hospital administrators that would order the dumping of nonpaying patients in back alleys. The practice was so bad that even the Republicans like Reagan stepped up to sign legislation to end it - back in the 80s, yet I had a similar experience after my big insurance company told the hospital that I didn't have insurance. After that things got real strange.

[Vrede too]

... The whole thing sort of confirmed my long held suspicion about the health care system in this country. And from what vredo too says, this doctor was breaking the law when he placed my likely ability to pay for care as more important than saving my life.

What's up with messing with my handle, hominy neoplacenta?

Oh, but Nurse Ratchet has assured us that could NEVER happen.

Your mommy still has to buy all of the apples and oranges for you.

I have no reason to doubt neoplacebo, but he is describing care that probably could have been put off a few days while payment was sorted out, even to the point of possibly getting him on Medicaid. I assure you that he would have gotten his CABG one way or another. Then, more akin to the situation you describe, if neoplacebo had been in the midst of having an MI it would have been immediately done, insurance or no insurance.

The obscene thing here is that you want and expect a busy ER to look at 2 people gasping for what could be their last breaths to put you on a ventilator rather than someone that's uninsured. Not only is that an expression of your entitled elitism, but it is by definition an unfair and inaccurate smear on every one of us that works or has worked in emergency medicine. I hope you carry that shame with you every time you seek our compassionate, law-abiding and professional help.

[Vrede too]

A story about making ventilators.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-fancy-wo ... 20379.html

If you look at the photo, that "ventilator" setup has a couple of compressed gas tanks and a mannequin. There's no sign of an air pump that I can see. So I'm dubious about how long the thing would work just off compressed gas (oxygen). Oh, and the video wouldn't load.

My Yahoo! link doesn't have a video to load. Here's a different article with a working video, though the audio ain't great once he moves over to the mannequin:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/it-s- ... r-BB12hDwb

The green bag that is normally operated manually provides the positive pressure. Inside a hospital it would be hooked up to wall oxygen except when moving a patient. The system is always pressurized and there's a valve that opens and closes to provide the pump action. It looks to me like this setup essentially does what would normally be done by EMTs pre-hospital or hospital staff until a patient is placed on a ventilator. It lacks all of the fine tuned specs and monitoring that a ventilator has and most patients need, but is far better than nothing if it really works.

Green tanks are oxygen. This source says that yellow tanks are CO2.
http://infoupdate.org/color-code-for-co ... cylinders/

Idk what that's doing there unless it somehow helps pressurize the system without actually being delivered to the patient. It's got a green diamond on it, maybe that means it's also oxygen.