The LEO thread

[GoCubsGo]

Opps.

Chicago Cops Burglarized U.S. Rep’s Office as Protest Raged. They Made Popcorn, Drank Coffee, Napped.

[Vrede too]

Opps.

Chicago Cops Burglarized U.S. Rep’s Office as Protest Raged. They Made Popcorn, Drank Coffee, Napped.

C'mon, the people of Chicago were that much safer because of it.

Perhaps the most shocking thing is that so many cops were too stupid to know that there would be cameras or to spot them.

[GoCubsGo]

Opps.

Chicago Cops Burglarized U.S. Rep’s Office as Protest Raged. They Made Popcorn, Drank Coffee, Napped.

C'mon, the people of Chicago were that much safer because of it.

Perhaps the most shocking thing is that so many cops were too stupid to know that there would be cameras or to spot them.

Pretty much what I thought also.

[Vrede too]

Maybe you have insight. Unions should and do support their members with legal assistance, etc. However, I'm unaware of any besides police unions that take such an aggressive role in publicly defending bad behavior. Why is this?

I do indeed have insight. Police believe, with some justification, that they are vulnerable to random and frivolous complaints by citizens, and that the city doesn't support them adequately because of politics, lawsuits, etc. They feel misunderstood and underappreciated. They think their bosses (in the city councils) don't understand their job or their challenges. They don't like getting thrown under the bus when a jury acquits somebody they caught because of improper collection of evidence (for example), nevermind that the evidence collection really was improper. So they get this defensive attitude and think nobody understands them but each other and they have to protect each other regardless. So because a lot of the bad behaviour is publicized, the union spins the situation its own way. Most other unions aren't representing members whose wrongdoings are on the front page. The union's view is that it is their job to protect the member and to assure that s/he gets treated legally and fairly, guilty or not, and if they don't' take an aggressive approach, their guy will be railroaded. A look at the record overall, of course, would show that more often than not, a cop will get treated way better than any other employee doing similar stuff. The union would say that's because they're doing a good job.

BTW, the reason serious police reform has been difficult to accomplish is that cops also vote. And police unions are good at getting out the vote. So if a mayor or council members sit too hard on the cops' neck, they'll loudly and vigorously oppose them next election. All politicians want the police and fire vote. On numerous occasions in negotiations, the cops have said, for example, "we want some tanks" and I and the rest of the negotiating team say "nope, we're not buying you any tanks, but we'll get you some new cars." Union says "OK" but really still wants tanks. We think it's settled, then the mayor calls us in to discuss negotiations. He say, the cops really want some tanks. We say, we covered that and it's settled. Mayor says, maybe we should buy them some tanks, or at least one tank. We say we'd really rather not open that topic back up again. Mayor says, well we're going to budget to buy them a tank. So now, they're getting a tank, and didn't have to give up anything for it because we've already committed to the new cars. And then when the contract is settled, the mayor wants to know what the costs for the police department went up so much if we're such hotshot negotiators.

It'll be interesting to see what happens, fershure.

Chicago, again.

Black Lives Matter protests: Chicago police face being kicked out of their union if they kneel

That's disgusting.

[Vrede too]

Speaking of police union power:

Even if Derek Chauvin is found guilty of murdering George Floyd, he's still eligible to receive a $1.5 million pension

... Laws in 22 states prevent police officers from receiving pensions if they commit any felony related to their work, according to a 2017 article in the Journal of Law, Economics and Policy. Minnesota has no such law.

"Another nine states have pension forfeiture laws that apply to police but are triggered only by certain specific crimes (e.g. corruption, financial crimes, sexual crimes against minors, etc.) and would not be triggered by a police officer's conviction for excessive use of force," the authors, D. Bruce Johnsen and Adam David Marcus, wrote.

Johnsen and Marcus also pointed to a correlation between strict police-pension rules and lower rates of police malfeasance.

"Our initial and admittedly casual evidence suggests that states with stronger pension forfeiture laws experience lower rates of police misconduct," they wrote. "With police pensions contingent on good faith performance in the line of duty, it is uncontroversial that misconduct will decline as the expected losses from misbehavior increase."

Journal of Law, Economics and Policy, Fall 2017
PENSION FORFEITURE AND POLICE MISCONDUCT

State by state list, numbered page 33, pdf page 37.

AL: Any felony r/t public office
CA: Any felony r/t public office
FL: See list, not most felonies and not murder
NC: Corruption and perjury felonies only
SC: Not listed and a text search didn't turn up an explanation
TN: Any felony r/t public office
WA: See note, de facto no effective law that cancels pensions

[O Really]

There is an argument, not entirely unreasonable, that would say that eligibility to receive a pension is an earned part of compensation and should not arbitrarily be taken away once it is earned. Similar to the "compensatory time" that cops can earn in lieu of overtime. Once earned, it must be used or paid and cannot be forfeited. This argument assumes that the amount of pension is dependent on years of service, and that there is an established maximum. So if a cop keeps his/her job for 20 years, s/he's entitled to whatever s/he's earned as of that date, but no more. If I were a citizen of Minneapolis (or on council), I'd be more concerned that a garden variety officer-level cop can get $50K per year after 20 years rather than whether an individual pension can be forfeited.

[Vrede too]

There is an argument, not entirely unreasonable, that would say that eligibility to receive a pension is an earned part of compensation and should not arbitrarily be taken away once it is earned. Similar to the "compensatory time" that cops can earn in lieu of overtime. Once earned, it must be used or paid and cannot be forfeited. This argument assumes that the amount of pension is dependent on years of service, and that there is an established maximum. So if a cop keeps his/her job for 20 years, s/he's entitled to whatever s/he's earned as of that date, but no more. If I were a citizen of Minneapolis (or on council), I'd be more concerned that a garden variety officer-level cop can get $50K per year after 20 years rather than whether an individual pension can be forfeited.

I hear your point, but cops love to tell us that criminals rarely get caught the sole time they've committed a crime. Given this axiom, plus the blue wall, the hesitance to charge and the unlikelihood of conviction, I think it's a pretty safe bet that any cop convicted of an on the job felony has committed many more felonies during their career.

[O Really]

I hear your point, but cops love to tell us that criminals rarely get caught the sole time they've committed a crime. Given this axiom, plus the blue wall, the hesitance to charge and the unlikelihood of conviction, I think it's a pretty safe bet that any cop convicted of an on the job felony has committed many more felonies during their career.

Sure, but that's not related to forfeiture of pension because of the conviction. Under that scenario, the cop(s) should have lost pension because their sorry asses were fired years ago.

[Vrede too]

Sure, but that's not related to forfeiture of pension because of the conviction. Under that scenario, the cop(s) should have lost pension because their sorry asses were fired years ago.

Sure, but "should have" has little connection to reality. States and lawyers will do what they do, I'm just saying that some or many of those years of pension-earning quality public service weren't.

[O Really]

I'm just saying that some or many of those years of pension-earning quality public service weren't.

True that.
It could be set up to lose one year of pension for every year in which the cop got a major disciplinary action, but again, they're really lax about disciplinary actions.

[billy.pilgrim]

dude, passes out or goes to sleep in the slow Wendy's drive thru.

Rather than knock on the window, they call the cops and the cops shoot the guy in the back.

Escalate until they comply or are dead

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/13/atlanta- ... an-wendys/

[Vrede too]

dude, passes out or goes to sleep in the slow Wendy's drive thru.

Rather than knock on the window, they call the cops and the cops shoot the guy in the back.

Escalate until they comply or are dead

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/13/atlanta- ... an-wendys/

The Atlanta police chief has resigned over it.
The Mayor says that the killer cop should be fired.

[Vrede too]

Protesters burn down Wendy's in Atlanta where black man was slain by police

Crap, that muddies the issue. Oh well.

[O Really]

Protesters burn down Wendy's in Atlanta where black man was slain by police

Crap, that muddies the issue. Oh well.

So burning the building is wrong. Period. Having said that, I wonder if the Wendy's manager might wish they'd just sent out a couple of guys to bang on the car window.

[billy.pilgrim]

Protesters burn down Wendy's in Atlanta where black man was slain by police

Crap, that muddies the issue. Oh well.

there are lot of pent up emotions coming up. better buildings than people. burn it all down, if that's what it takes to be noticed as human

That's all they are asking

[Vrede too]

there are lot of pent up emotions coming up. better buildings than people. burn it all down, if that's what it takes to be noticed as human

That's all they are asking

I understand the anger, I just don't agree with the tactic.

Atlanta officer fired after fatal shooting of black man

An Atlanta police officer was fired following the fatal shooting of a black man and another officer was placed on administrative duty, the police department announced early Sunday....

The police department also released body camera and dash camera footage from both officers.

More than 40 minutes elapses between the time Brosnan first knocks on Brooks' car door while he's in Wendy's drive-thru and when gunshots ring out; Rolfe arrives on scene about 16 minutes in. The shooting is audible in footage from Rolfe's dash camera and both officers' body cameras, but wasn't captured on any of the four recordings provided by police. Both body cameras fall off during the struggle that ensues when Rolfe moves to handcuff Brooks after speaking to him for about 20 minutes, although Brooks is briefly glimpsed being Tased before he's shot....

Reynolds said his agents will turn over results of their investigation to Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard, whose office will decide whether criminal charges are warranted against either officer.

Howard said Saturday his office "has already launched an intense, independent investigation of the incident.” ...

Seems like the city is taking the correct steps so far.

[billy.pilgrim]

there are lot of pent up emotions coming up. better buildings than people. burn it all down, if that's what it takes to be noticed as human

That's all they are asking

I understand the anger, I just don't agree with the tactic.

Atlanta officer fired after fatal shooting of black man

An Atlanta police officer was fired following the fatal shooting of a black man and another officer was placed on administrative duty, the police department announced early Sunday....

The police department also released body camera and dash camera footage from both officers.

More than 40 minutes elapses between the time Brosnan first knocks on Brooks' car door while he's in Wendy's drive-thru and when gunshots ring out; Rolfe arrives on scene about 16 minutes in. The shooting is audible in footage from Rolfe's dash camera and both officers' body cameras, but wasn't captured on any of the four recordings provided by police. Both body cameras fall off during the struggle that ensues when Rolfe moves to handcuff Brooks after speaking to him for about 20 minutes, although Brooks is briefly glimpsed being Tased before he's shot....

Reynolds said his agents will turn over results of their investigation to Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard, whose office will decide whether criminal charges are warranted against either officer.

Howard said Saturday his office "has already launched an intense, independent investigation of the incident.” ...

Seems like the city is taking the correct steps so far.

I agree that it won't help the cause - today, but the winners do get to celebrate their violence for their various causes

"After dusk, angry Bostonians paraded Oliver’s likeness through the streets and destroyed the brick building he had recently built along the waterfront. In case Oliver still hadn’t received the hint, the mob beheaded his effigy in front of his finely appointed home before throwing stones through his windows, demolishing his carriage house and imbibing the contents of his wine cellar."

[Vrede too]

I'm not an absolute pacifist, though for most political purposes in the US I think nonviolence is the more effective tactic. I just don't see how burning a Wendy's contributes, especially when:

The cops interacted with the victim for 40 minutes without hurting him;
The mayor is pissed off;
The chief resigned;
The killer cop has been fired;
The killer cop may be charged.

[billy.pilgrim]

I'm not an absolute pacifist, though for most political purposes in the US I think nonviolence is the more effective tactic. I just don't see how burning a Wendy's contributes, especially when:

The cops interacted with the victim for 40 minutes without hurting him;
The mayor is pissed off;
The chief resigned;
The killer cop has been fired;
The killer cop may be charged.

I still agree, but I completely can almost understand the rage that hundreds of years of being "less than" causes.

250 years ago in Boston, we would have burned the police chief's house

[Vrede too]

Better target than Wendy's.