Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

[Vrede too]

It is an interesting question, though - what would be an appropriate, respectful, and inclusive collective name. I use "African-American" as the currently preferred term, but it's awkward and not necessarily accurate even though everybody ultimately came from Africa. The actual equivalent of "caucasian" is the disgraced term "negroid" and no longer acceptable or possible for rehab. We need a word that includes cultural differences that may be based on race, and isn't so dependent on skin colour. Maybe we should offer everyone the opportunity to state their personal descriptor, like asking for their preferred pronoun. "Hi, my name is Joaquin; my pronoun is "he" and my personal descriptor is "bi-racial."

I mostly stick with 'Black'.

"Hi, my name is Vrede too. My preferred pronoun is 'Hey you' and I'm pink as in Pink Lives Matter!"

[O Really]

Speaking of pronouns, I received my first business email with pronoun listed in the senders signature along with title, email, etc.

Paul (Lastname)
Managing Director
Pronouns: he/him
(phone)
(email)

[Vrede too]

White Couple Calls Cops On Man Writing ‘Black Lives Matter’ On His Own Property

Dripping with irony.

Busted, Karen.

Freakin creepy bitch. Her life is ruined in three minutes.

Bye bye Karen.

Found: Ku Klux Karens

[billy.pilgrim]

Monument down last night

https://decaturish.com/2020/06/police-c ... -monument/

[Whack9]

Back near where I grew up there's a confederate monument in a cemetery, erected in 1910:

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/national_ ... etery.html

Haven't seen anything above having it removed. But my guess is since it's in a national cemetery at a POW camp at a civil war era fort the context makes it ok. I suppose it's like how at civil war battlefields like Gettysburg you'll see monuments and what not of both sides. I guess the context makes it acceptable, since they're marking places where the soldiers formed their lines and what not. And in some sense such places are more akin to outdoor museums teaching history.

Thoughts?

https://weirdnj.com/stories/cemetery-sa ... nns-point/

Also - there are some graves of German POWs that died while imprisoned there.

Used to go here all the time as a kid. I still visit when I go back to visit family. Neat place.

[Whack9]

Oh yeah I thought this was neat - The underground railroad ran through the area I grew up, too:

https://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/to ... ailro.html

This place was close to where I grew up. I'd ride my bike by it sometimes. Had to watch out for dogs. Mufuckers would chase me all the time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springtown,_New_Jersey

Legislation enacted in 1786 enabled Quakers living in Greenwich Township to sell tracts of land to "free negros". Many African Americans soon located to Springtown, and the community became a center of abolitionist activity. Harriet Tubman frequented Springtown from 1849 to 1853, and the settlement was an important station on the Underground Railroad, with five of Cumberland County's seven "station masters" living there.[5][6]

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/underground/nj3.htm

I had no idea until I moved away.

[billy.pilgrim]

Oh yeah I thought this was neat - The underground railroad ran through the area I grew up, too:

https://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/to ... ailro.html

This place was close to where I grew up. I'd ride my bike by it sometimes. Had to watch out for dogs. Mufuckers would chase me all the time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springtown,_New_Jersey

Legislation enacted in 1786 enabled Quakers living in Greenwich Township to sell tracts of land to "free negros". Many African Americans soon located to Springtown, and the community became a center of abolitionist activity. Harriet Tubman frequented Springtown from 1849 to 1853, and the settlement was an important station on the Underground Railroad, with five of Cumberland County's seven "station masters" living there.[5][6]

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/underground/nj3.htm

I had no idea until I moved away.

Thanks, as links go, one thing led to another and another

https://slavery.princeton.edu/stories/l ... nary%20War.


Interesting history. Reading about the history of slavery helps to understand the time. I can't help but believe that we didn't need a war to stop secession. 10,000+ years of slavery was ending all over the world. The South would not have lasted and we wouldn't have all those statues and bumper stickers today.
It even ended in NJ in 1866

"It was not until April 18, 1846 that the state legislature passed “An Act to Abolish Slavery,” declaring:
That slavery in this state be and it is hereby abolished, and every person who is now holden in slavery by the laws thereof is made free, subject, however, to the restrictions herein after mentioned and imposed."

"This act, like the Gradual Abolition Act of 1804, did not actually emancipate enslaved people in the state. It instead turned the remaining enslaved peoples into “apprentices for life.”'

"Because of these limitations on emancipation, it was not until the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment in 1865—which New Jersey reluctantly ratified in January of 1866—that the remaining sixteen slaves in the state were forever freed."

Juneteenth passed these folk by
Edit: Lincoln's EP excluded Northern slaves.

[Vrede too]

Back near where I grew up there's a confederate monument in a cemetery, erected in 1910:

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/national_ ... etery.html

Haven't seen anything above having it removed. But my guess is since it's in a national cemetery at a POW camp at a civil war era fort the context makes it ok. I suppose it's like how at civil war battlefields like Gettysburg you'll see monuments and what not of both sides. I guess the context makes it acceptable, since they're marking places where the soldiers formed their lines and what not. And in some sense such places are more akin to outdoor museums teaching history.

Thoughts?

https://weirdnj.com/stories/cemetery-sa ... nns-point/

Also - there are some graves of German POWs that died while imprisoned there.

Used to go here all the time as a kid. I still visit when I go back to visit family. Neat place.

Most discussions that I've seen say that it's okay to have the statues at museums, battlefields, slaver/traitor cemeteries, and sometimes even elsewhere if they're placed in proper context. I agree.

Of course, anything is fine on private land, but the slackers want we decent and patriotic Americans to host their participation trophies on our public land.

[Vrede too]

... Juneteenth passed these folk by
Edit: Lincoln's EP excluded Northern slaves.

Lincoln felt, probably correctly, that his war powers only gave him the ability to free the slaves in the treasonous states. Hence the need for the 13th and 14th Amendments.

[Whack9]

Back near where I grew up there's a confederate monument in a cemetery, erected in 1910:

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/national_ ... etery.html

Haven't seen anything above having it removed. But my guess is since it's in a national cemetery at a POW camp at a civil war era fort the context makes it ok. I suppose it's like how at civil war battlefields like Gettysburg you'll see monuments and what not of both sides. I guess the context makes it acceptable, since they're marking places where the soldiers formed their lines and what not. And in some sense such places are more akin to outdoor museums teaching history.

Thoughts?

https://weirdnj.com/stories/cemetery-sa ... nns-point/

Also - there are some graves of German POWs that died while imprisoned there.

Used to go here all the time as a kid. I still visit when I go back to visit family. Neat place.

Most discussions that I've seen say that it's okay to have the statues at museums, battlefields, slaver/traitor cemeteries, and sometimes even elsewhere if they're placed in proper context. I agree.

Of course, anything is fine on private land, but the slackers want we decent and patriotic Americans to host their participation trophies on our public land.

Context is key.

There's a difference between memorializing and revering someone with a statue, vs remembrance in context of location.

[billy.pilgrim]

... Juneteenth passed these folk by
Edit: Lincoln's EP excluded Northern slaves.

Lincoln felt, probably correctly, that his war powers only gave him the ability to free the slaves in the treasonous states. Hence the need for the 13th and 14th Amendments.

the EP was more about hurting GB support.

Not sure that WP gave him powers to enact laws against a belligerants. I guess it could.
I seem to remember something about King George freeing American slaves during the Revolution. It may have only been at sea.

Lincoln made it known that although he disagreed with slavery, preserving the Union was more important.


Edit:
https://www.thoughtco.com/emancipation- ... cy-3310345

Edit 2

https://www.history.com/news/5-things-y ... ancipation

"in August of 1862, Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed black men and women at the White House in the hopes of getting their support on a plan for colonization in Central America. Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of white people towards black people, Lincoln argued, it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.”

[Vrede too]

the EP was more about hurting GB support.

Not sure that WP gave him powers to enact laws against a belligerants. I guess it could....

Right or wrong, it's what he believed. He wasn't giving the northern slavers a pass.

Lincoln made it known that although he disagreed with slavery, preserving the Union was more important.

Edit:
https://www.thoughtco.com/emancipation- ... cy-3310345

Makes sense, though I'll bet that domestic pro and cons still weighed heaviest for Abe.

Edit 2
https://www.history.com/news/5-things-y ... ancipation

"in August of 1862, Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed black men and women at the White House in the hopes of getting their support on a plan for colonization in Central America. Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of white people towards black people, Lincoln argued, it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.”

Abe came to see that abolition and preserving the Union were inseparable. I think he was correct.

[billy.pilgrim]

Back near where I grew up there's a confederate monument in a cemetery, erected in 1910:

https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/national_ ... etery.html

Haven't seen anything above having it removed. But my guess is since it's in a national cemetery at a POW camp at a civil war era fort the context makes it ok. I suppose it's like how at civil war battlefields like Gettysburg you'll see monuments and what not of both sides. I guess the context makes it acceptable, since they're marking places where the soldiers formed their lines and what not. And in some sense such places are more akin to outdoor museums teaching history.

Thoughts?

https://weirdnj.com/stories/cemetery-sa ... nns-point/

Also - there are some graves of German POWs that died while imprisoned there.

Used to go here all the time as a kid. I still visit when I go back to visit family. Neat place.

Most discussions that I've seen say that it's okay to have the statues at museums, battlefields, slaver/traitor cemeteries, and sometimes even elsewhere if they're placed in proper context. I agree.

Of course, anything is fine on private land, but the slackers want we decent and patriotic Americans to host their participation trophies on our public land.

Context is key.

There's a difference between memorializing and revering someone with a statue, vs remembrance in context of location.

we are still too close to that war for most people to understand. It takes being able to imagine your own actions if you had lived on the many different sides. Blame never stops when we ascribe today's values on people from past times.
Leviticus, today, looks like an idiot for demanding that we nit eat oysters and bbq - not so much 3,000 years ago, then, he saved lives.

[billy.pilgrim]

the EP was more about hurting GB support.

Not sure that WP gave him powers to enact laws against a belligerants. I guess it could....

Right or wrong, it's what he believed. He wasn't giving the northern slavers a pass.

Lincoln made it known that although he disagreed with slavery, preserving the Union was more important.

Edit:
https://www.thoughtco.com/emancipation- ... cy-3310345

Makes sense, though I'll bet that domestic pro and cons still weighed heaviest for Abe.

Edit 2
https://www.history.com/news/5-things-y ... ancipation

"in August of 1862, Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed black men and women at the White House in the hopes of getting their support on a plan for colonization in Central America. Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of white people towards black people, Lincoln argued, it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.”

Abe came to see that abolition and preserving the Union were inseparable. I think he was correct.

I don't give a fuck about preserving the union. I wish we could split it up now so I can live without republican bullshit.
Slavery sucked then as now, but was quickly on its way out.
The war wasn't necessary.
Have you noticed the problems it's still causing because of the war?
One of those links says that Lincoln was still capturing and returning runaway slaves well into the war.

We give him too much credit as the great Emancipator and see too little of the politician.

Important too, is seeing that the countries that ended slavery, without war, have a much better environment for blacks today.

[Vrede too]

It would be a long debate over how much of our current situation is Abe's fault and how much is the fault of crybaby Southern historical revisionists.

[billy.pilgrim]

It would be a long debate over how much of our current situation is Abe's fault and how much is the fault of crybaby Southern historical revisionists.

You resort to name calling so fast. Are you directing that toward me?

All this time I thought you were a pacifist and understood that politicians do things for political reasons.

[Vrede too]

It would be a long debate over how much of our current situation is Abe's fault and how much is the fault of crybaby Southern historical revisionists.

You resort to name calling so fast. Are you directing that toward me?

All this time I thought you were a pacifist and understood that politicians do things for political reasons.

You sure have thin skin. That was directed at crybaby Southern historical revisionists, NOT you unless you are one.

I'm no pacifist, and I'm admitting that reasonable people can give Abe a share of the blame. Pay attention.

Back to the topic, I don't understand your argument:

IF slavery was on its way out and;
IF Abe was not an abolitionist;
THEN, wasn't it really stupid of the SOUTH to secede and attack federal facilities over slavery, thus committing economic, social and literal suicide? Unless, of course, the intent was really to keep millions enslaved as long as possible, and expand slavery in the West. How many years of that would have been acceptable?

[GoCubsGo]

This has all the makings for a happy ending for all involved.

[neoplacebo]

This has all the makings for a happy ending for all involved.

Well, that sure is a load off my troubled mind.......hearing Mayor P.T. Barnum bless this fascist fandango warms my soul. Now if they will only begin issuing each rally attendee an AR-15 everything would be just trumpy bigly.

[Vrede too]

This has all the makings for a happy ending for all involved.

I'll bet there's still a curfew for Blacks and Latinos.