The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20-12

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Crock Hunter
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Crock Hunter »

Partisan62 wrote:before a tyrannical despot named Lincoln forever enslaved all of us to an onerous federal government.

Funny that you mention "enslaving" as so often I've had to kick you in the nuts for omitting the text leading to the paragraph you posted...


Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.

And now the State of South Carolina having resumed her separate and equal place among nations, deems it due to herself, to the remaining United States of America, and to the nations of the world, that she should declare the immediate causes which have led to this act.

In the year 1765, that portion of the British Empire embracing Great Britain, undertook to make laws for the government of that portion composed of the thirteen American Colonies. A struggle for the right of self-government ensued, which resulted, on the 4th of July, 1776, in a Declaration, by the Colonies, "that they are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; and that, as free and independent States, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent States may of right do."

They further solemnly declared that whenever any "form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government." Deeming the Government of Great Britain to have become destructive of these ends, they declared that the Colonies "are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved."

In pursuance of this Declaration of Independence, each of the thirteen States proceeded to exercise its separate sovereignty; adopted for itself a Constitution, and appointed officers for the administration of government in all its departments-- Legislative, Executive and Judicial. For purposes of defense, they united their arms and their counsels; and, in 1778, they entered into a League known as the Articles of Confederation, whereby they agreed to entrust the administration of their external relations to a common agent, known as the Congress of the United States, expressly declaring, in the first Article "that each State retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence, and every power, jurisdiction and right which is not, by this Confederation, expressly delegated to the United States in Congress assembled."

Under this Confederation the war of the Revolution was carried on, and on the 3rd of September, 1783, the contest ended, and a definite Treaty was signed by Great Britain, in which she acknowledged the independence of the Colonies in the following terms: "ARTICLE 1-- His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz: New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be FREE, SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that he treats with them as such; and for himself, his heirs and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof."

Thus were established the two great principles asserted by the Colonies, namely: the right of a State to govern itself; and the right of a people to abolish a Government when it becomes destructive of the ends for which it was instituted. And concurrent with the establishment of these principles, was the fact, that each Colony became and was recognized by the mother Country a FREE, SOVEREIGN AND INDEPENDENT STATE.

In 1787, Deputies were appointed by the States to revise the Articles of Confederation, and on 17th September, 1787, these Deputies recommended for the adoption of the States, the Articles of Union, known as the Constitution of the United States.

The parties to whom this Constitution was submitted, were the several sovereign States; they were to agree or disagree, and when nine of them agreed the compact was to take effect among those concurring; and the General Government, as the common agent, was then invested with their authority.

If only nine of the thirteen States had concurred, the other four would have remained as they then were-- separate, sovereign States, independent of any of the provisions of the Constitution. In fact, two of the States did not accede to the Constitution until long after it had gone into operation among the other eleven; and during that interval, they each exercised the functions of an independent nation.

By this Constitution, certain duties were imposed upon the several States, and the exercise of certain of their powers was restrained, which necessarily implied their continued existence as sovereign States. But to remove all doubt, an amendment was added, which declared that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people. On the 23d May , 1788, South Carolina, by a Convention of her People, passed an Ordinance assenting to this Constitution, and afterwards altered her own Constitution, to conform herself to the obligations she had undertaken.

Thus was established, by compact between the States, a Government with definite objects and powers, limited to the express words of the grant. This limitation left the whole remaining mass of power subject to the clause reserving it to the States or to the people, and rendered unnecessary any specification of reserved rights.

We hold that the Government thus established is subject to the two great principles asserted in the Declaration of Independence; and we hold further, that the mode of its formation subjects it to a third fundamental principle, namely: the law of compact. We maintain that in every compact between two or more parties, the obligation is mutual; that the failure of one of the contracting parties to perform a material part of the agreement, entirely releases the obligation of the other; and that where no arbiter is provided, each party is remitted to his own judgment to determine the fact of failure, with all its consequences.

In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.

The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.

The same article of the Constitution stipulates also for rendition by the several States of fugitives from justice from the other States.

The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.

Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation, and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that public opinion at the North has invested a great political error with the sanction of more erroneous religious belief.

(Insert Confederate Weaseling paragraph here. ... .. )
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Stinger
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Stinger »

A very, very dim one-trick pony rides again: "My delusions will vanquish reality."

For him, they probably do.

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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Crock Hunter »

Stinger wrote:A very, very dim one-trick pony rides again: "My delusions will vanquish reality."

For him, they probably do.

It's genuinely hard to imagine anyone waxing sentimental over a society that found honor in owning other humans. ..
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rstrong
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by rstrong »

Partisan62 wrote:If you are a Yankee and/or a liberal,
There are plenty of conservative southerners who would call you a fringe wingnut.

Instead of unilaterally declaring secession like the last time, try it as an act of democracy. If a clear majority in the state voted to leave, the federal government could not ignore it. Not in this day and age. Whether the goal is to seceed or to address past or present wrongs, such a vote is the first and most important step.

And you have the power to make that happen. And it's never been easier, with the internet giving you the ability to petition and self-publish.

You can freely use a petition site as others have recently have, and you can use the tried and true door-to-door method. Be sure to specify that it's non-partisan, unlike recent "Obama was reelected so we're leaving" petitions. You represent citizens in ALL parties. Make sure they know WHY you want SC to leave.

If even a quarter of the people in the state think they're enslaved by a tyrannical, onerous federal government, you'll have no problem getting enough support to put it to a more official vote. Again, this is the first and most important step. It's what separates a popular cause from the rantings of a fringe blowhard.

Put it to a vote. I dare you.

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Stinger
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Stinger »

Partisan62 wrote: the same tired drivel from the same tired idiot
Exactamundo!

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Bungalow Bill
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

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Long story short: They want to take away my slaves. :x

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mike
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

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Bungalow Bill wrote:Long story short: They want to take away my slaves. :x
No matter what, they're not gonna take away my black cats! :evil:

Guess I'm safe ... Image
Image

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rstrong
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by rstrong »

mike wrote:
Bungalow Bill wrote:Long story short: They want to take away my slaves. :x
No matter what, they're not gonna take away my black cats! :evil:
...they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!
- Mel Gibson as William Wallace, in Braveheart.

Note: William Wallace wasn't Braveheart. That was a different guy. And while Wallace didn't speak with an Australian accent, he also didn't speak with a Scottish one. He may have killed people just for speaking English at all. His native language was Norman French. British history is weird.

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mike
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by mike »

rstrong wrote:
mike wrote:
Bungalow Bill wrote:Long story short: They want to take away my slaves. :x
No matter what, they're not gonna take away my black cats! :evil:
...they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!
- Mel Gibson as William Wallace, in Braveheart.

Note: William Wallace wasn't Braveheart. That was a different guy. And while Wallace didn't speak with an Australian accent, he also didn't speak with a Scottish one. He may have killed people just for speaking English at all. His native language was Norman French. British history is weird.
Image As insightful as ever and always, rstrong. Image
Image

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Bungalow Bill
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Bungalow Bill »

I think cats, black or otherwise, are safe, since how much cotton can a cat really
pick? I've heard both sides of the is secession legal argument. Whatever it is in
theory, in practice it wasn't. Sorry slaveocrats, you lose again. :---P

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Bungalow Bill
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Bungalow Bill »

So in the bizarro world of Confederate apologists, the tyrants aren't the people who
owned other people, but the people who eventually freed those people, even though
that was not their original purpose. And freeing those people is some kind of evil?
Don't think so. And the government of the U.S. didn't consider secession to be legal
and acted according, thank goodness. You lose once again.

Don't have a Prius or a sticker. Nutjob amateur psychology=Hilarious.

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billy.pilgrim
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by billy.pilgrim »

are you admitting that slavery was EVIL in 1860
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”

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Bungalow Bill
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Bungalow Bill »

Actually it does get to choose, to a certain degree, which rights we get to keep and which ones are
not allowed, via the Constitution and the law. Very few were "butchered" and no one was enslaved
so that the slaves could be freed. Slavery was the evil, not the means used to accomplish that. The
abortion discussion is just a diversion so that the neo-Confederates can change the subject and not
have to talk about their support of slavery. You lose again.

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Bungalow Bill
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Bungalow Bill »

Hey, let's go to the Constitution, Article 1, Section 10: No State shall enter into any
Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation. Hmmm. That would seem to mean that the CSA
was unconstitutional, and isn't the president sworn to uphold the Constitution?

The Supreme Court has already made a decision about the legality of abortion.
Sorry, you lost that one too. It's unfortunate that so many had to die before
the stubborn slaveocrats would finally call it a day, but they died in war and
were not butchered, and quite a few died from non-combat causes.

Anybody who goes to such lengths to support the slaveocracy, well you've got
to think they're kindred spirits, though that gets harder to admit every year.
You lose again.

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Stinger
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Stinger »

Vrede wrote:My guess is that Partisan62 would have been white trash, too illiterate and incompetent to be able to afford any slaves and with no prospect of ever earning a decent living because he couldn't compete with slave labor. He would have marched off enthusiastically in support of his slaver superiors, then would have been shot in the back by a Confederate officer when he turned and ran at the first sight of Union bayonets.
My guess is he would have run home to Mommy at the sound of grease popping in the skillet and then brag to the locals about how many Yankee asses he kicked.

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Crock Hunter
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

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Vrede wrote:My guess is that Partisan62 would have been white trash, too illiterate and incompetent to be able to afford any slaves and with no prospect of ever earning a decent living because he couldn't compete with slave labor. He would have marched off enthusiastically in support of his slaver superiors.
And that idiotic lemming mentality continues among those racist radicals today... how many times have we seen those nitwits vote against their own best interest in order to defend their masters.. ..

Partisan is indeed carrying on the southern tradition... just not the one he thinks.. .
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rstrong
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

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Bungalow Bill wrote:Hey, let's go to the Constitution, Article 1, Section 10: No State shall enter into any
Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation.
Yup. Instead of a treaty or alliance, they call it a Memorandum of Agreement.

Examples:
- Memorandum of Understanding for Flood and Drought Mitigation on the Red River
- Memorandum of Agreement for State and Province Emergency Management Assistance
- Memorandum of Understanding on Trade, Tourism and Mutual Economic Cooperation between the State of Texas and the Province of Manitoba
- Memorandum of Understanding on Inland Port Development between Kansas City SmartPort, Inc., USA and the Province of Manitoba, Canada
...and many more.

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O Really
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by O Really »

Partisan62 wrote:
...70-80% of Confederate soldiers owned no slaves and fought because their state was being invaded illegally?

.
True that, but that's hardly the point, is it? In most wars individual soldiers aren't fighting directly for a specific cause - particularly if they were drafted (for example) or caught between a rock and a hard place with no real recourse other than to fight on one side or the other. The point is, why was the war begun in the first place. Those in your state of SC did indeed state "slavery" numerous times. Absent that issue, there would have been no "illegal invasion." Absent the issue of slavery, there would not have been any of the steps leading to civil war. You can talk about "states rights" if you like, and all the theory of self-determination and sovereignty you can look up, but ultimately the only "state's right" that was seriously contended was over slavery. All the infringements related to sovereignty were over slavery.

I really don't understand why this is such a problem for you (collectively). It is what it is. South Carolina (for example) had, for the time, sound and important economic reasons why slavery should be protected. But to say slavery wasn't the issue when those who actually made the decision to secede said it was, exceeds the limits of poetic licence, which is the only thing that makes possible turning an ill-advised and ill-fought self-destructive war into some romantic adventure of noblesse oblige.

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Bungalow Bill
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Bungalow Bill »

I take it to mean that the CSA was unconstitutional and therefore the president,
who is sworn to uphold the Constitution, had every right to destroy it. The
Supreme Court found that secession was illegal shorty after the end of the
Civil War. Sorry, you lose again.

Nobody says that the majority of southerners owned slaves, just that many of
the elites who decided things did. It was this small fraction of the population that
had a personal stake in retaining the ability to own other people. Everybody else
got suckered into fighting for something that would be of no benefit to them. That's
the way things quite often work out.

The Supreme Court doesn't decide what is morally right or wrong, it decides what
is constitutional or unconstitutional. Most southerners didn't have much of a moral
problem with slavery. Why else would they fight a bloody war to retain it? Sorry,
you lose again.

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Crock Hunter
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Re: The Union is Dissolved! S.C. Secession Anniversary 12-20

Unread post by Crock Hunter »

Partisan62 wrote: Why can't some of you think beyond the narrow indoctrination that the public education system has drilled into your heads?
Perhaps if you had been paying attention in school you too would be able to read and understand the Confederate State's Ordinances of Secession. .. each one declaring the right to own other humans as a primary reason for their treasonous acts... .

But then for years you've had these facts pounded up your ass by me and now by the learned members of this forum... .. ..
Why do you hold on to such thoughts when you are so clearly wrong .?
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