"in a natural disaster" does not apply to those that have evacuated.
Well I was considering related aspects to the "natural disaster" and not just the immediacy of a hurricane or toronado. You could, for example, escape your floating house and fall out of the rescue boat onto a pitchfork. Or you could get past the earthquake safely with your house apparently intact only to have the front porch roof fall on you as you try to leave. Or the tree could fall on your car while you're driving off in your wife's. In those instances, your choices had little effect on whether you live or die except in the woo-woo sense that every moment is a different choice that affects the rest of your life.Vrede too wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:29 pm"in a natural disaster" does not apply to those that have evacuated.
During a tornado, for example, I would rather be in a storm cellar than a mobile home, though I suppose that it might be long term luck as to which I own. During an earthquake, to cite another example, I would rather be in an RV like yours than a typical residence. One's choices often create the luck.
During Opal a tornado killed evacuees on I-65 north of Montgomery, but I lived through the biker bar and the drive on submerged US 98 during the back side of the storm.O Really wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:40 pmWell I was considering related aspects to the "natural disaster" and not just the immediacy of a hurricane or toronado. You could, for example, escape your floating house and fall out of the rescue boat onto a pitchfork. Or you could get past the earthquake safely with your house apparently intact only to have the front porch roof fall on you as you try to leave. Or the tree could fall on your car while you're driving off in your wife's. In those instances, your choices had little effect on whether you live or die except in the woo-woo sense that every moment is a different choice that affects the rest of your life.Vrede too wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:29 pm"in a natural disaster" does not apply to those that have evacuated.
During a tornado, for example, I would rather be in a storm cellar than a mobile home, though I suppose that it might be long term luck as to which I own. During an earthquake, to cite another example, I would rather be in an RV like yours than a typical residence. One's choices often create the luck.
These would be people that did not evacuate. Idk how the other 9 died, but a number so low during a storm so strong tells me that the evacuation of hundreds of thousands or more was a success.Ida's death count rises while 600,000 lack power
... Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards said on Sunday that the number of storm deaths in his state rose to 13, and that power generators were responsible for some of them.
"Four of the 13 deaths that I mentioned earlier have been attributable to carbon monoxide poisoning. You don't taste it. You don't smell it. You have no idea that it's there. And very, very, sadly, it often gets whole families because they'll turn on the generator, go to sleep and that's what happens."
2 more deaths from warehouse where nursing home residents rode out Ida; 6 dead, 10 hospitalized... As of September 4, a total of 71 deaths have been confirmed in relation to Ida: 27 in New Jersey, 18 in New York, 13 in Louisiana, 5 in Pennsylvania, 2 in Mississippi, 2 in Alabama, 1 in Maryland, 1 in Virginia, and 1 in Connecticut. The storm has caused eight indirect deaths, including a Louisiana man mauled to death by an alligator after walking through Ida's floodwaters. Two electrical workers died while repairing power grid damage caused by the storm. Four people have died in New Orleans and Jefferson Parish as a result of carbon monoxide poisoning while using generators with inadequate ventilation.
... On August 28, New Orleans mayor LaToya Cantrell issued a mandatory evacuation for all parts of the city which are outside of its flood protections area.
... Nearly all of New Orleans lost electricity due to major damage to transmission lines, while about 1 million people throughout the state were left without power. Two drowning deaths were reported including a man who drowned in New Orleans after attempting to drive his vehicle through floodwater.
... An anemometer in Grand Isle recorded a gust of 148 mph (238 km/h) before being destroyed. In Prairieville, a man was killed when a tree fell on his home during the hurricane. An anemometer in Port Fourchon recorded a gust of 172 mph (277 km/h) when Ida came ashore.
... On August 31, a 24-year-old man was found dead in Uptown New Orleans. The cause of death was assumed to be carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning. The next day, in the same city, 12 people, including 7 children, were hospitalized due to CO poisoning. Three additional CO poisoning deaths were reported on September 2 in Jefferson Parish. In nearby St. Tammany Parish, nine people were hospitalized from the same cause.
... A St. James Parish man was killed after his backyard shed fell on top of him during Hurricane Ida's heavy winds. Four storm-related deaths were also reported in Tangipahoa Parish among nursing home residents evacuated during Hurricane Ida. As a result of power outages one person died in New Orleans due to heat exhaustion.
Not your usual flash flooding in these areas.... The National Weather Service's New York City office issued its first ever flash flood emergency in response to severe flooding in northeastern New Jersey, followed an hour later by the first flash flood emergency ever for New York City itself.
I don't think anywhere has basement apartments where flash flooding is known to occur.... Most people who died in New York City, including a family of three in Woodside, Queens, lived in basement apartments.
... . Sweltering weather conditions following Ida worsened the living quality of many surviving residents without power and food. People fled to their rooftops in outer New Orleans to escape floodwaters. More than 2 million were placed under heat advisories after Ida passed. Officials said that power may not be restored to some for up to a month, a delay that could be life-threatening because of intense heat....
The Louisiana National Guard activated 4,900 guard personnel, and dispatched about 200 high-water vehicles, along with more than 70 rescue boats and 30 helicopters. By the afternoon of August 30, 191 people and 27 pets were rescued after crews checked 400 homes....
President Joe Biden commented on the flooding rains from the storms remnants, stating that New York recorded more rain Wednesday than "it usually sees the entire month of September". Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York City said Ida was "unlike anything we've seen before". Most of the city's deaths were in Queens. Rainfall in Central Park broke a 94-year record, while Newark, New Jersey, broke a 62-year record.
Ulysses wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:27 pmWhen I lost my sense of smell last fall, I got a special smoke alarm what includes a carbon monoxide detector. Just in case. I installed it in the common room between the kitchen and the master bedroom, high on the wall (where CO tends to rise). So far, so good. I know, CO has no aroma, but wood smoke and natural gas do.
Perhaps all homes should have CO detecting alarms, especially those for seniors.
I have my CO detector at bed height since I'd want to be woken the moment that the air at that level becomes dangerous. However, up high is probably wise for a combined CO/smoke unit since heat and thus smoke do rise. My smoke alarm is up high.Installation
CO detectors can be placed near the ceiling or near the floor because CO has nearly the same density as air ...
Well, what do you know. I googled this just now and discovered that CO alarms have been required in California since 2011. I did not know this! Anyway, I installed my CO alarm last November, so I'm OK there. I've always had smoke alarms for decades. The saving grace is that homeowners have 30 days after it being found out they are not in compliance with the CO detector requirement to correct it. After that, there's a $200 fine.GoCubsGo wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:45 pmUh, yeah. They're supposed to in most states.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/environme ... tutes.aspx
Where Should I Place a Carbon Monoxide Detector?
Because carbon monoxide is slightly lighter than air and also because it may be found with warm, rising air, detectors should be placed on a wall about 5 feet above the floor. The detector may be placed on the ceiling. Do not place the detector right next to or over a fireplace or flame-producing appliance. Keep the detector out of the way of pets and children. Each floor needs a separate detector. If you are getting a single carbon monoxide detector, place it near the sleeping area and make certain the alarm is loud enough to wake you up.
Vrede too wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:46 pmThese would be people that did not evacuate. Idk how the other 9 died, but a number so low during a storm so strong tells me that the evacuation of hundreds of thousands or more was a success.Ida's death count rises while 600,000 lack power
... Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards said on Sunday that the number of storm deaths in his state rose to 13, and that power generators were responsible for some of them.
"Four of the 13 deaths that I mentioned earlier have been attributable to carbon monoxide poisoning. You don't taste it. You don't smell it. You have no idea that it's there. And very, very, sadly, it often gets whole families because they'll turn on the generator, go to sleep and that's what happens."
Wiki:2 more deaths from warehouse where nursing home residents rode out Ida; 6 dead, 10 hospitalized... As of September 4, a total of 71 deaths have been confirmed in relation to Ida: 27 in New Jersey, 18 in New York, 13 in Louisiana, 5 in Pennsylvania, 2 in Mississippi, 2 in Alabama, 1 in Maryland, 1 in Virginia, and 1 in Connecticut. The storm has caused eight indirect deaths, including a Louisiana man mauled to death by an alligator after walking through Ida's floodwaters. Two electrical workers died while repairing power grid damage caused by the storm. Four people have died in New Orleans and Jefferson Parish as a result of carbon monoxide poisoning while using generators with inadequate ventilation.
... On August 28, New Orleans mayor LaToya Cantrell issued a mandatory evacuation for all parts of the city which are outside of its flood protections area.
... Nearly all of New Orleans lost electricity due to major damage to transmission lines, while about 1 million people throughout the state were left without power. Two drowning deaths were reported including a man who drowned in New Orleans after attempting to drive his vehicle through floodwater.
... An anemometer in Grand Isle recorded a gust of 148 mph (238 km/h) before being destroyed. In Prairieville, a man was killed when a tree fell on his home during the hurricane. An anemometer in Port Fourchon recorded a gust of 172 mph (277 km/h) when Ida came ashore.
... On August 31, a 24-year-old man was found dead in Uptown New Orleans. The cause of death was assumed to be carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning. The next day, in the same city, 12 people, including 7 children, were hospitalized due to CO poisoning. Three additional CO poisoning deaths were reported on September 2 in Jefferson Parish. In nearby St. Tammany Parish, nine people were hospitalized from the same cause.
... A St. James Parish man was killed after his backyard shed fell on top of him during Hurricane Ida's heavy winds. Four storm-related deaths were also reported in Tangipahoa Parish among nursing home residents evacuated during Hurricane Ida. As a result of power outages one person died in New Orleans due to heat exhaustion.
The LDH rescued hundreds of seniors Wednesday and Thursday after their agents were denied entry to investigate reports of poor living conditions.
Sounds like poor planning and an awful result. The article doesn't say how the seven nursing homes fared, nor does it estimate deaths if the residents had not been evacuated.
Back to Wiki:Not your usual flash flooding in these areas.... The National Weather Service's New York City office issued its first ever flash flood emergency in response to severe flooding in northeastern New Jersey, followed an hour later by the first flash flood emergency ever for New York City itself.I don't think anywhere has basement apartments where flash flooding is known to occur.... Most people who died in New York City, including a family of three in Woodside, Queens, lived in basement apartments.... . Sweltering weather conditions following Ida worsened the living quality of many surviving residents without power and food. People fled to their rooftops in outer New Orleans to escape floodwaters. More than 2 million were placed under heat advisories after Ida passed. Officials said that power may not be restored to some for up to a month, a delay that could be life-threatening because of intense heat....
The Louisiana National Guard activated 4,900 guard personnel, and dispatched about 200 high-water vehicles, along with more than 70 rescue boats and 30 helicopters. By the afternoon of August 30, 191 people and 27 pets were rescued after crews checked 400 homes....
President Joe Biden commented on the flooding rains from the storms remnants, stating that New York recorded more rain Wednesday than "it usually sees the entire month of September". Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York City said Ida was "unlike anything we've seen before". Most of the city's deaths were in Queens. Rainfall in Central Park broke a 94-year record, while Newark, New Jersey, broke a 62-year record.
Or at least that's not how it's counted after every stormVrede too wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:29 pm"in a natural disaster" does not apply to those that have evacuated.
that's not how the everybody else sees it.
During a tornado, for example, I would rather be in a storm cellar than a mobile home, though I suppose that it might be long term luck as to which I own. During an earthquake, to cite another example, I would rather be in an RV like yours than a typical residence. One's choices often create the luck.
Is this different?Vrede too wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:31 pmWithout knowing the specifics I question why I should subsidize their lifestyle choice.Officials Survey Hurricane Damage in Grand Isle, Louisiana (video)
The mayor of Grand Isle, Louisiana, David Camardelle says between 85 and 90 percent of homes and businesses on the island have been “totally destroyed” after Hurricane Ida made landfall on August 29 as a Category 4 storm.
Video shared by Jefferson Parish on September 4 shows Grand Isle Mayor David Camardelle and Councilman at Large Ricky Templet surveying the damage in Grand Isle. The barrier island was deemed “uninhabitable” as an estimated 100 percent of structures in Grand Isle damaged or destroyed, officials said.
Both Camardelle and Templet called for federal support to bolster levee protection in the area, which has been struck by several powerful storms in recent years.
I believe that in-transit evacuation casualties are counted as "in a natural disaster", and I'm okay with that. However, I don't think they're counted once folks reach safety, and I don't think they should be.billy.pilgrim wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:21 amOr at least that's not how it's counted after every stormVrede too wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:29 pm"in a natural disaster" does not apply to those that have evacuated.
that's not how the everybody else sees it.
During a tornado, for example, I would rather be in a storm cellar than a mobile home, though I suppose that it might be long term luck as to which I own. During an earthquake, to cite another example, I would rather be in an RV like yours than a typical residence. One's choices often create the luck.
Pay wall, but I saw the headline.billy.pilgrim wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:26 amIs this different?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... fires.html
Seems that would depend on cause and circumstances of death. If they have "reached safety" but die from the exertion of escaping or injuries received during the escape, I'd say they count. If the "reach safety" but it turns out it wasn't so safe because a tree falls on them, I'd say they count. If they die two weeks later from pneumonia or infection, I'd say they count. If they "reach safety" and get run over going back out to the open grocery store, I'd say that doesn't count. If their escape is to a place completely out of the area of disaster and they die, they probably shouldn't count. There's the "but for" principle to consider in any of it. "But for" the storm, these people wouldn't have been where they got killed. "But for" the storm, they wouldn't have been out on a crowded over-packed highway getting run into by some other exhaused driver. "But for" the storm, they wouldn't have been moved to the "safe" warehouse building, so even if they probably would have died anyway, their death in the "safe place" should count.