Everybody Must Get Stoned

[Ulysses]

I was wrong to post that Tom Hayden became a US Senator. He ran a campaign but was never a US Senator. He was a CA state senator, though.

Not to worry.

However your post prompted me to do a little google research on Hayden, and I found this Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hayden

Of course Hayden and Fonda were well known in California, but I don't recall he ever got the widespread recognition/respect he probably deserved. And I didn't realize he had passed away in 2016.

[neoplacebo]

Well, Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover certainly gave him some recognition, and even respect in the form of fear and paranoia.

[billy.pilgrim]

Oh, we could probably dredge up some issues to bicker about ...

So... I have to ask; what's the message, or the point of the post/image?
Are you suggesting that the carving be destroyed in the name of ... what?
There is no message in that sculpturing; it's a part of our history; not a popular time in history, but
nevertheless, it is history.
So much of our history has already been destroyed, thanks namely to Donald J. Trump, who rabidly
re-ignited feelings that for the most part, were beginning to simmer down after decades of inhumanities
to others of different skin color, nationalities, languages, and religious beliefs.
Destroying this image in Stone Mountain, GA would do nothing to improve race relations; the gigantic scar it
would leave on that mountainside would also be a gigantic scar in our history, in our minds, in our attitudes,
and would only serve as a reminder that that hate for those who are different, is still alive and well and
dwelling in the hearts of the supremacist's and low-life's.

FWIW, I don't cotton to the "Back Lives Matter" bullshit, because I look at the number of murders being committed
on Blacks by other Blacks; I DO stand by "All Lives Matter."

The implication has always been, "Back Lives Matter, too". It's not like Whites are being slaughtered nor imprisoned in disproportionate numbers by your LEO brethren.

"our history"??? It's a select pseudohistory inspired by butthurt "Lost Cause" wannabe slavers and created with heavy KKK and later Jim Crow defender involvement:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mou ... al_Carving
Stone Mountain Park was even officially opened on April 14, 1965—100 years to the day after Lincoln's assassination. THAT is the history it intentionally represents.

Where are the carved mountains memorializing the slaves and honoring their Union Army liberators? Are they not "history", too?
Should Germany carve Hitler mountains?
Should the US military replace the Saddam statues that it tore down?
Should we have govt supported statues of Timothy McVeigh, the Columbine shooters and Typhoid Mary? "History", you know.
No, LOSERS do not deserve to be honored, period.

Stone Mountain, GA already is a "scar" on our national conscience. Why shouldn't ALL Georgians and Americans be able to visit without tacitly supporting slavers, traitors and their hateful worshipers?

What about Rushmore? I'm still not sure where it stops.

And of course there are the offensive Buddhas of Bamiyan

[Vrede too]

What about Rushmore? I'm still not sure where it stops.

Washington and Jefferson are honored for being respected revolutionaries and POTUSes, not for being slavers or fighting for slavery. What have you got against Teddy Roosevelt and Lincoln, and how long do you think it will be before most Americans agree with you?

That said, I'm offended by adulterating a perfectly good mountain. If the sculptures deteriorate or are destroyed it won't ruin my day.

And of course there are the offensive Buddhas of Bamiyan

You're comparing Jim Crow-promoted, KKK-supported, slavers and traitors to Buddha?

[Whack9]

My take in regards to all things confederate is this

If someone wants to hold onto it because they descended from confederate soldiers, have at it. You do you.

But the converse should also be true - it's expected that people will oppose monuments to the confederacy given many of our ancestors fought and died fighting against them.

Having said this, I reserve the right to trash and oppose everything confederate seeing as how this is part of my heritage (not hate).

[GoCubsGo]

My take in regards to all things confederate is this

If someone wants to hold onto it because they descended from confederate soldiers, have at it. You do you.

But the converse should also be true - it's expected that people will oppose monuments to the confederacy given many of our ancestors fought and died fighting against them.

Having said this, I reserve the right to trash and oppose everything confederate seeing as how this is part of my heritage (not hate).

You do you is reluctantly acceptable for your front yard (as repulsive as it may be), the problem is using public funds on public property etc.

[Vrede too]

You do you is reluctantly acceptable for your front yard (as repulsive as it may be), the problem is using public funds on public property etc.

Exactly. This topic began with an article about the management of Stone Mountain Park, but it's owned by the state of Georgia. It's offensive for the descendants of slaves, Union soldiers and US patriots to be forced to be complicit in promoting slavers and traitors.

[Whack9]

Yeah true that. You guys have a point.

[O Really]

The US blew it long ago when, during "Reconstruction" it could have permanently outlawed all honorific monuments, etc. to the failed and defeated insurgents. But now, well over a century later, it's probably too much ingrained in the culture to be able to clean up with just some removals of pigeon perches. It's not just the US, though. Once a certain legend gets into a culture, it's next to impossible to remove. Look at the longstanding conflicts about Taiwan, the piece of land currently called "Israel" and surrounding areas, Turks and Greeks, North/South Korea, etc. Nothing about any of those issues couldn't be resolved if the people weren't still living in a grievous past.

The descendants of the confederate insurgents want to be respected as the separate country they thought they were, and aren't going to change. They're no different from the Palestinians except they have different accents.

[GoCubsGo]

The descendants of the confederate insurgents want to be respected as the separate country they thought they were, and aren't going to change. They're no different from the Palestinians except they have different accents.

Slaver zealots = religious zealots plus thousands of years?

[neoplacebo]

The descendants of the confederate insurgents want to be respected as the separate country they thought they were, and aren't going to change. They're no different from the Palestinians except they have different accents.

And live in different country that was also stolen but made legal somehow.

[billy.pilgrim]

What about Rushmore? I'm still not sure where it stops.

Washington and Jefferson are honored for being respected revolutionaries and POTUSes, not for being slavers or fighting for slavery. What have you got against Teddy Roosevelt and Lincoln, and how long do you think it will be before most Americans agree with you?

That said, I'm offended by adulterating a perfectly good mountain. If the sculptures deteriorate or are destroyed it won't ruin my day.

And of course there are the offensive Buddhas of Bamiyan

You're comparing Jim Crow-promoted, KKK-supported, slavers and traitors to Buddha?

Not my point at all.

"Stolen land
Before it became known as Mount Rushmore, the Lakota called this granite formation Tunkasila Sakpe Paha, or Six Grandfathers Mountain. It was a place for prayer and devotion for the Native people of the Great Plains, explains Donovin Sprague, head of the history department at Sheridan College in Wyoming and a member of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. The mountain’s location in the Black Hills was also significant.

“It’s the center of the universe of our people,” Sprague says. For Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho communities, the region was not only spiritually important, it was also where tribes gathered food and plants they used in building and medicine."

https://api.nationalgeographic.com/dist ... t-rushmore

And - how should the descendants of the 5,000 slaves the British freed feel about Washington using our army to run them down and return them to the slave owners?

Yeah, history

[billy.pilgrim]

The US blew it long ago when, during "Reconstruction" it could have permanently outlawed all honorific monuments, etc. to the failed and defeated insurgents. But now, well over a century later, it's probably too much ingrained in the culture to be able to clean up with just some removals of pigeon perches. It's not just the US, though. Once a certain legend gets into a culture, it's next to impossible to remove. Look at the longstanding conflicts about Taiwan, the piece of land currently called "Israel" and surrounding areas, Turks and Greeks, North/South Korea, etc. Nothing about any of those issues couldn't be resolved if the people weren't still living in a grievous past.

The descendants of the confederate insurgents want to be respected as the separate country they thought they were, and aren't going to change. They're no different from the Palestinians except they have different accents.

Wouldn't have made a difference. The monuments were erected during Jim Crow and there were more than enough people, states and politicians supporting Jim Crow North and South to end any such "attack on our histories".

[Ulysses]

The US blew it long ago when, during "Reconstruction" it could have permanently outlawed all honorific monuments, etc. to the failed and defeated insurgents. But now, well over a century later, it's probably too much ingrained in the culture to be able to clean up with just some removals of pigeon perches. It's not just the US, though. Once a certain legend gets into a culture, it's next to impossible to remove. Look at the longstanding conflicts about Taiwan, the piece of land currently called "Israel" and surrounding areas, Turks and Greeks, North/South Korea, etc. Nothing about any of those issues couldn't be resolved if the people weren't still living in a grievous past.

The descendants of the confederate insurgents want to be respected as the separate country they thought they were, and aren't going to change. They're no different from the Palestinians except they have different accents.

Wouldn't have made a difference. The monuments were erected during Jim Crow and there were more than enough people, states and politicians supporting Jim Crow North and South to end any such "attack on our histories".

True that.

It was part of a larger problem.

[Vrede too]

Not my point at all.

"Stolen land
Before it became known as Mount Rushmore, the Lakota called this granite formation Tunkasila Sakpe Paha, or Six Grandfathers Mountain. It was a place for prayer and devotion for the Native people of the Great Plains, explains Donovin Sprague, head of the history department at Sheridan College in Wyoming and a member of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. The mountain’s location in the Black Hills was also significant.

“It’s the center of the universe of our people,” Sprague says. For Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho communities, the region was not only spiritually important, it was also where tribes gathered food and plants they used in building and medicine."

https://api.nationalgeographic.com/dist ... t-rushmore

If the Lakota want Tunkasila Sakpe Pah returned to them, I would support that. Then, I'm fine with whatever they want to do with the sculptures.

And - how should the descendants of the 5,000 slaves the British freed feel about Washington using our army to run them down and return them to the slave owners?

Terrible, but that's not why he's honored. Otoh, Stone Mountain honors Davis, Lee and Jackson because they were traitors that fought for slavery.

Yeah, history

Sure beats hateful myths.

[billy.pilgrim]

The US blew it long ago when, during "Reconstruction" it could have permanently outlawed all honorific monuments, etc. to the failed and defeated insurgents. But now, well over a century later, it's probably too much ingrained in the culture to be able to clean up with just some removals of pigeon perches. It's not just the US, though. Once a certain legend gets into a culture, it's next to impossible to remove. Look at the longstanding conflicts about Taiwan, the piece of land currently called "Israel" and surrounding areas, Turks and Greeks, North/South Korea, etc. Nothing about any of those issues couldn't be resolved if the people weren't still living in a grievous past.

The descendants of the confederate insurgents want to be respected as the separate country they thought they were, and aren't going to change. They're no different from the Palestinians except they have different accents.

Wouldn't have made a difference. The monuments were erected during Jim Crow and there were more than enough people, states and politicians supporting Jim Crow North and South to end any such "attack on our histories".

True that.

It was part of a larger problem.

Southerner Wilson made his home in the President's home at Princeton and the governor's house in NJ before he anchored segregation through his lily white presidency didn't one of the mid-western states elect a governor from kkk party? And then there was Kellogg and on and on

Yep, that law should about as much of a chance of living through the first 30 years of this century as those solar panels Carter put on the WH roof had after reagan moved in.

We started as racists - baby steps are best

[billy.pilgrim]

Not my point at all.

"Stolen land
Before it became known as Mount Rushmore, the Lakota called this granite formation Tunkasila Sakpe Paha, or Six Grandfathers Mountain. It was a place for prayer and devotion for the Native people of the Great Plains, explains Donovin Sprague, head of the history department at Sheridan College in Wyoming and a member of the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. The mountain’s location in the Black Hills was also significant.

“It’s the center of the universe of our people,” Sprague says. For Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho communities, the region was not only spiritually important, it was also where tribes gathered food and plants they used in building and medicine."

https://api.nationalgeographic.com/dist ... t-rushmore

If the Lakota want Tunkasila Sakpe Pah returned to them, I would support that. Then, I'm fine with whatever they want to do with the sculptures.

And - how should the descendants of the 5,000 slaves the British freed feel about Washington using our army to run them down and return them to the slave owners?

Terrible, but that's not why he's honored. Otoh, Stone Mountain honors Davis, Lee and Jackson because they were traitors that fought for slavery.

Yeah, history

Sure beats hateful myths.

Myths?

The Washington story is exactly the same as the Civil War except the slavers (as you call them) won.
What if Lee had used his army to track down 5,000 fleeing slaves?

They were brave Generals one and all. Each one as deserving in history as Washington, or Grant (as Grant would be the first to admit); however, the carving and all the statues (as Lee expressed should not be erected) were created as part of Jim Crow and should be moved in museums where they can be depicted as dishonorabley as possible.

My objections to the confederate statues and such only extends to the intent and the subject depiction - say the great emancipator over the lesser black figure comes down on content and all the statues built during times of intimidation - every damn one comes down.

[Vrede too]

... Yeah, history

Sure beats hateful myths.

Myths?

The Washington story is exactly the same as the Civil War except the slavers (as you call them) won.
What if Lee had used his army to track down 5,000 fleeing slaves?

Sorry, I did not mean your Washington anecdote, which I assume is true. I was referring to the Lost Cause of the Confederacy and other whitewashing of abominations, including any Washington myths that serve to hide his warts. I detest jingoism.

They were brave Generals one and all. Each one as deserving in history as Washington, or Grant (as Grant would be the first to admit); however, the carving and all the statues (as Lee expressed should not be erected) were created as part of Jim Crow and should be moved in museums where they can be depicted as dishonorably as possible.

My objections to the confederate statues and such only extends to the intent and the subject depiction - say the great emancipator over the lesser black figure comes down on content and all the statues built during times of intimidation - every damn one comes down.

Agreed.

[billy.pilgrim]

... Yeah, history

Sure beats hateful myths.

Myths?

The Washington story is exactly the same as the Civil War except the slavers (as you call them) won.
What if Lee had used his army to track down 5,000 fleeing slaves?

Sorry, I did not mean your Washington anecdote, which I assume is true. I was referring to the Lost Cause of the Confederacy and other whitewashing of abominations, including any Washington myths that serve to hide his warts. I detest jingoism.

They were brave Generals one and all. Each one as deserving in history as Washington, or Grant (as Grant would be the first to admit); however, the carving and all the statues (as Lee expressed should not be erected) were created as part of Jim Crow and should be moved in museums where they can be depicted as dishonorably as possible.

My objections to the confederate statues and such only extends to the intent and the subject depiction - say the great emancipator over the lesser black figure comes down on content and all the statues built during times of intimidation - every damn one comes down.

Agreed.

Right, the lost cause bs is nearly all 20th century bs.

Lee commanded everyone to put down their arms, but there were plenty that advised and wanted a guerilla war for their cause.

It could have gone on for years.

[Ulysses]

Myths?

The Washington story is exactly the same as the Civil War except the slavers (as you call them) won.
What if Lee had used his army to track down 5,000 fleeing slaves?

They were brave Generals one and all. Each one as deserving in history as Washington, or Grant (as Grant would be the first to admit); however, the carving and all the statues (as Lee expressed should not be erected) were created as part of Jim Crow and should be moved in museums where they can be depicted as dishonorabley as possible.

My objections to the confederate statues and such only extends to the intent and the subject depiction - say the great emancipator over the lesser black figure comes down on content and all the statues built during times of intimidation - every damn one comes down.

Amen, brother.