The Daniel Penny Trial

[Jasmine]

I think I might be the only conservative here, but I am curious about your feelings about the outcome of the Daniel Penny trial.

Do you agree with this BLM leader:

Hawk Newsome, co-founder of New York's BLM chapter, told reporters outside court on Friday, "Racism is still alive and kicking in America...those among you who say that Daniel Penny is innocent, have racism and bias in your heart."

"Today, white supremacy got another victory. Today, the KKK [Ku Klux Klan], the klansmen, the evil in America got another victory," Newsome said, adding, that the nation will "continue to place second-class status on Black people."

Personally, I would have voted for ”Not Guilty,” and it has nothing to do with race or skin color. If it was a black guy choking out a violent white guy on that subway, I would vote the same way.

Secondly, am I to assume that there were no black people on the jury? That seems highly unlikely.

I get that racism is alive and well in America, but in my view using this particular trial as an example is downright silly and only further damages the BLM movement..

[GoCubsGo]

First, it's naive to think there's no racism in this country. It's alive and well along with misogyny.

Secondly, Daniel Penny does not get to be judge, jury and executioner for a person in a mental health crisis.

Penny maintained the hold after the train had reached its next stop, Broadway–Lafayette Street, while other passengers held the doors open to prevent it from moving. During the chokehold, some bystanders warned Penny about Neely's health; one told him, "You're gonna kill him now!", while others helped in holding down Neely until police arrived.[3] Vázquez captured the final three minutes of the hold on video, which shows Penny applying it for nearly a minute after Neely had stopped struggling and gone limp. Prosecutors alleged that the chokehold lasted for six minutes, while Penny said it lasted less than five minutes. An unknown amount of time after Penny released Neely, New York City Police (NYPD) officers arrived. The responding officers stated that Neely had a faint pulse upon their arrival. Neely was given naloxone and cardiopulmonary resuscitation by officers at the scene. Shortly thereafter, the New York City Fire Department transported Neely to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead. Penny was taken for questioning by the NYPD and released without charge several hours later.

A medical examiner ruled Neely's death to be a homicide by compression of the neck, which was later disputed by Penny's defense lawyers. On May 11, 2023, Penny was charged with second-degree manslaughter and was released on bond. He was formally indicted by a grand jury the next month, with an additional lesser charge of criminally negligent homicide added a few weeks later. Penny pleaded not guilty to both charges, under which he faced up to 15 years in prison. Two men shown in Vázquez's video helping Penny to restrain Neely were not charged. Penny's trial began in October 2024 and concluded in December 2024. The manslaughter charge was dismissed by the trial judge after the jury deadlocked, while he was acquitted on the remaining charge of criminally negligent homicide. A wrongful death suit by Neely's father remained pending as of December 2024.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jordan_Neely

A dismissal doesn't mean he was acquitted or found not guilty.


He was guilty of at least manslaughter. A chokehold to incapacitate averages about nine seconds.
His motivation was perhaps more pure than Derek Chauvin, but the result was the same.

[Jasmine]

Wasn’t Penny found not guilty?

I doubt Penny meant to kill the guy. It’s unfortunate that he died, but that’s way better than him hurting innocents.

Do you agree with the BLM leader’s accusation that the verdict was racially motivated?

[GoCubsGo]

Wasn’t Penny found not guilty?

I doubt Penny meant to kill the guy. It’s unfortunate that he died, but that’s way better than him hurting innocents.

Do you agree with the BLM leader’s accusation that the verdict was racially motivated?

No, I gave you the results above.

The coroner ruled it a homicide, he was charged appropriately.

Negligent homicide or manslaughter means accidentally or not premeditated. People were screaming at him he was killing him and he didn't stop.

Not sure how a hung jury can be racially motivated without more info. What does the BLM guy know that we dont?

[Jasmine]

Wasn’t Penny found not guilty?

I doubt Penny meant to kill the guy. It’s unfortunate that he died, but that’s way better than him hurting innocents.

Do you agree with the BLM leader’s accusation that the verdict was racially motivated?

No, I gave you the results above.

The coroner ruled it a homicide, he was charged appropriately.

Negligent homicide or manslaughter means accidentally or not premeditated. People were screaming at him he was killing him and he didn't stop.

Not sure how a hung jury can be racially motivated without more info. What does the BLM guy know that we dont?

I was okay with the case going to trial. But I always felt he should be found not guilty.

I think the BLM guy is just talking out of his own racist butt.

[O Really]

If the incident had been in Florida and he had just shot him, he probably could have just said he wuz skeered and walk with no problem. I think Penny should have let Neely up when he quit struggling. I think some of the other passengers should have been more insistent in getting Penny to do that. But I don't think racism was the motive - I'm pretty sure Penny would have done the same thing if Neely was white. Maybe not if some guy who didn't look homeless had the same behaviour. Given the charges and the evidence they had to work with, I'd probably have voted to acquit.

[GoCubsGo]

If the incident had been in Florida and he had just shot him, he probably could have just said he wuz skeered and walk with no problem. I think Penny should have let Neely up when he quit struggling. I think some of the other passengers should have been more insistent in getting Penny to do that. But I don't think racism was the motive - I'm pretty sure Penny would have done the same thing if Neely was white. Maybe not if some guy who didn't look homeless had the same behaviour. Given the charges and the evidence they had to work with, I'd probably have voted to acquit.

What makes Derek Chauvin guilty and this guy innocent?

[O Really]

If the incident had been in Florida and he had just shot him, he probably could have just said he wuz skeered and walk with no problem. I think Penny should have let Neely up when he quit struggling. I think some of the other passengers should have been more insistent in getting Penny to do that. But I don't think racism was the motive - I'm pretty sure Penny would have done the same thing if Neely was white. Maybe not if some guy who didn't look homeless had the same behaviour. Given the charges and the evidence they had to work with, I'd probably have voted to acquit.

What makes Derek Chauvinguilty and this guy innocent?

I don't think Penny is totally innocent - I just don't think the prosecution proved what they needed to to support the charges. But for starters, Floyd was handcuffed and lying face-down in the street when Chauvin dropped his knee on Floyd's neck. Neely was acting at least aggressively if not directly threatening. Chauvin had the job of controlling the situation; Penny was just another passenger. But speaking from personal experience, a crazy guy on a train is a lot more scary than the same crazy man in the street.

[Vrede too]

I think I might be the only conservative here, but I am curious about your feelings about the outcome of the Daniel Penny trial.

I'm surprised that no one brought it up sooner.

Do you agree with this BLM leader:

Not entirely.

Hawk Newsome, co-founder of New York's BLM chapter, told reporters outside court on Friday, "Racism is still alive and kicking in America

True.

...those among you who say that Daniel Penny is innocent,

Juries don't determine innocence. They decide guilt or guilt not proven.

have racism and bias in your heart."

Some do, some don't.

"Today, white supremacy got another victory. Today, the KKK [Ku Klux Klan], the klansmen, the evil in America got another victory," Newsome said,

True, even if that doesn't describe all players. Just read the public debate.

adding, that the nation will "continue to place second-class status on Black people."

True.

Personally, I would have voted for ”Not Guilty,” and it has nothing to do with race or skin color. If it was a black guy choking out a violent white guy on that subway, I would vote the same way.

You can't know that. We are not always conscious of our prejudices.

Secondly, am I to assume that there were no black people on the jury? That seems highly unlikely.

Google and Wiki, I still can't tell. Maybe Manhattan courts don't report the tally? I also don't see any tally of the veterans on the jury, thus potentially IDing bias in favor of USMC veteran Penny.

I get that racism is alive and well in America, but in my view using this particular trial as an example is downright silly and only further damages the BLM movement.

It was a deadly tragedy and decent and sincere people have differing opinions, including the grand jury and prosecutors who charged Penny, and some trial jurors for at least a few days. In my view using it's downright silly to write off so many as being "downright silly", and doing so only further damages America.

I'm disappointed in the acquittal because of what it MIGHT say about racism, but I was not on the jury, not in the courtroom and didn't follow the case closely. So,

Daniel Penny does not get to be judge, jury and executioner for a person in a mental health crisis.

Agreed.

Vázquez captured the final three minutes of the hold on video, which shows Penny applying it for nearly a minute after Neely had stopped struggling and gone limp.

Ewww, what is wrong with him? I restrained patients dozens of times in my career, not once until they lost consciousness.

Prosecutors alleged that the chokehold lasted for six minutes, while Penny said it lasted less than five minutes.

He checked his phone or watch?

... Penny was taken for questioning by the NYPD and released without charge several hours later.

Would a Black killer have been treated the same? Did this release affect subsequent events?

A medical examiner ruled Neely's death to be a homicide by compression of the neck, which was later disputed by Penny's defense lawyers.

Their medical training?

... A wrongful death suit by Neely's father remained pending as of December 2024.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jordan_Neely

The standard for conviction will be less than 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

A dismissal doesn't mean he was acquitted or found not guilty.

A dismissal once trial has begun means that double jeopardy is attached.

He was guilty of at least manslaughter.

Perhaps in your opinion, but legally nope. It's not a mistrial.

Penny now can only be found guilty at civil trial, or by the feds like by criminal denial of civil rights. Ain't gonna happen under racist TRE45QN.

A chokehold to incapacitate averages about nine seconds.

Maybe carotid compression, but a true chokehold takes longer.

His motivation was perhaps more pure than Derek Chauvin, but the result was the same.

Wasn’t Penny found not guilty?

Dismissal and not guilty, same effect.

I doubt Penny meant to kill the guy.

Hence the secondary negligent homicide charge.

It’s unfortunate that he died, but that’s way better than him hurting innocents.

Jordan Neely did not physically harm anyone.

The coroner ruled it a homicide, he was charged appropriately.

"homicide" merely means death at the hands of another. Justifiable, accidental and self defense usually aren't charged.

I think Penny should have let Neely up when he quit struggling. I think some of the other passengers should have been more insistent in getting Penny to do that.

Damn straight. George Floyd taught us that citizen responsibility is greater than just complaining when someone is being killed.

[GoCubsGo]

I don't think Penny is totally innocent - I just don't think the prosecution proved what they needed to to support the charges. But for starters, Floyd was handcuffed and lying face-down in the street when Chauvin dropped his knee on Floyd's neck. Neely was acting at least aggressively if not directly threatening. Chauvin had the job of controlling the situation; Penny was just another passenger. But speaking from personal experience, a crazy guy on a train is a lot more scary than the same crazy man in the street.

If only we could see the killing video ad nauseum like George Floyd, but there actually isn't much out there. What there is looks like a homicide to me. Choking an unconscious and defenseless man until death.

He was already completely incapacitated. The chokehold worked, that's when you are supposed to stop.