Heroes

[GoCubsGo]

:happy-cheerleaderkid: :happy-cheerleaderkid:

[O Really]

I’ll turn 50 this year. Yes, I’d say I have a successful life, but my definition of “success” may be different than yours. And yes, I have had plenty of support from my family and especially my husband. We are by no means wealthy, but we are grateful for the life we have. It’s all a matter of perspective.

"Successful" can have varying connotations. I generally consider it being able to make a comfortable living doing something I enjoy or get satisfaction from so as to enjoy time with the person or people I love. You can count for yourself the millions of people over the years who haven't been able to do that - not because of their abilities, but because of the color or shape of their skin or their choice in partners.

[Vrede too]

Riiight, you actually believe that rainbow women operate on a level playing field Well, maybe they do in an uber-diverse, progressive state like Hawaii. On behalf of the left, you're welcome.

As for your sports analogy, it took concerted effort against massive resistance over many years to integrate professional sports. It most certainly was NOT about putting "the best team together regardless of demographics". We're all fortunate that the forces of historic DEI mostly won. Even then it took several decades more for Blacks to be accepted as college and NFL QBs, and the near exclusive majority of owners, managers and head coaches are still White. Is that because only Whites were and are capable?

I agree that things are better now that sports are integrated. Like I said, it should always be about being the BEST.

The DEI movement has taken things too far with trying to force the inclusion of minorities including gays and transgenders. Its aims for diversity at the expense of quality.

Good program illustrating my point:

Fear of a Black Quarterback
VICE • TV-14
2 hours broadcast

For decades, NFL owners marginalize Black quarterbacks; however, the success of Black quarterbacks and calls for racial equality, led by Colin Kaepernick, lead to positive changes.

A very recent DEI success story.

[Jasmine]

I’ll turn 50 this year. Yes, I’d say I have a successful life, but my definition of “success” may be different than yours. And yes, I have had plenty of support from my family and especially my husband. We are by no means wealthy, but we are grateful for the life we have. It’s all a matter of perspective.

"Successful" can have varying connotations. I generally consider it being able to make a comfortable living doing something I enjoy or get satisfaction from so as to enjoy time with the person or people I love. You can count for yourself the millions of people over the years who haven't been able to do that - not because of their abilities, but because of the color or shape of their skin or their choice in partners.

If your point is that racism is alive and well, that is certainly true. But my contention is that overcompensating for the problem (forced DEI) just makes things worse. In the end, it’s up to every individual to overcome barriers to success (both real and perceived). We should have equal opportunities, not guaranteed equal outcomes.

[Jasmine]

Riiight, you actually believe that rainbow women operate on a level playing field Well, maybe they do in an uber-diverse, progressive state like Hawaii. On behalf of the left, you're welcome.

As for your sports analogy, it took concerted effort against massive resistance over many years to integrate professional sports. It most certainly was NOT about putting "the best team together regardless of demographics". We're all fortunate that the forces of historic DEI mostly won. Even then it took several decades more for Blacks to be accepted as college and NFL QBs, and the near exclusive majority of owners, managers and head coaches are still White. Is that because only Whites were and are capable?

I agree that things are better now that sports are integrated. Like I said, it should always be about being the BEST.

The DEI movement has taken things too far with trying to force the inclusion of minorities including gays and transgenders. Its aims for diversity at the expense of quality.

Good program illustrating my point:

Fear of a Black Quarterback
VICE • TV-14
2 hours broadcast

For decades, NFL owners marginalize Black quarterbacks; however, the success of Black quarterbacks and calls for racial equality, led by Colin Kaepernick, lead to positive changes.

A very recent DEI success story.

I disagree. Black QBs didn’t attain their success through DEI practices. They succeeded because of their hard work and abilities. It began with guys like James Harris and continued with Doug Williams. Then QBs like Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham took it a step further, and then guys like Michael Vick completely changed the way the QB position is played with their ability to run. Today, dual-threat QBs (Lamar Jackson, Jaylen Hurts, Kyler Murray, Josh Allen, etc.) are all the rage. They succeeded because of because of their own greatness and thousands of hours of hard work.

[Vrede too]

I disagree. Black QBs didn’t attain their success through DEI practices. They succeeded because of their hard work and abilities. It began with guys like James Harris and continued with Doug Williams. Then QBs like Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham took it a step further, and then guys like Michael Vick completely changed the way the QB position is played with their ability to run. Today, dual-threat QBs (Lamar Jackson, Jaylen Hurts, Kyler Murray, Josh Allen, etc.) are all the rage. They succeeded because of because of their own greatness and thousands of hours of hard work.

There you go again, thinking that DEI is about compensating for lack of ability. Of course they were all enormously talented, but the early ones had to overcome tremendous resistance and only got their shots because of the INTENTIONAL removal of racist barriers - DEI.

James "Shack" Harris - Recruited by a Power 5 school? He played for HBCU Grambling State University despite:

Harris attended Carroll High in Monroe, where he led the football team to a Louisiana state championship in his sophomore year, and two perfect seasons. He was twice named to the all state football team. A straight-A student, Harris also played on the school's baseball team.

Now tell me that a White QB with that resume wouldn't have been playing for LSU.

As for pro football:

Continuing the American Football League's more liberal (than the NFL's) personnel policies, the Bills made Harris the first black player to start a season at quarterback in the history of pro football.

"more liberal" - Oh look, DEI.

Harris was also just the second black player in the modern era to start in any game as quarterback for a professional football team....

:think: It it your contention that prior to 1969 no Black QBs displayed "hard work and abilities"? Unless you're that racist you MUST admit that they had the "hard work and abilities" all along and it was only DEI that opened the door for them.

So, that example of yours utterly failed.

Doug Williams - Oh my, HBCU Grambling State University again. Imagine that.

Williams played quarterback for the Grambling State Tigers from 1974 to 1977.... Williams guided the Tigers to a 36–7 (.837 winning percentage) record as a four-year starter, and led the Tigers to three Southwestern Athletic Conference Championships. Williams was named Black College Player of the Year twice.

In 1977, Williams led the NCAA in several categories, including total yards from scrimmage (3,249), passing yards (3,286), touchdown passes (38), and yards per play (8.6).

He even played high school ball in BATON ROUGE. Gee, do you think he would have had success if LSU or other Power 5 team gave him a shot?

... Williams finished fourth in the Heisman Trophy voting, behind Earl Campbell, Terry Miller, and Ken MacAfee.

Despite the success that he enjoyed on the field, Tampa Bay Buccaneers offensive coordinator Joe Gibbs was the only NFL coach who visited Williams to work him out and scout him.

"the only NFL coach" :think: What if he was White?

It was 9 years after "Shack" Harris was drafted in the eighth round that Tampa Bay drafted Williams 17th overall. What do you think, no Black "hard work and abilities" in the interim?

... Tampa Bay, which had won just two games in the first two years of the franchise, went to the playoffs three times in five seasons with Williams as starter and played in the 1979 NFC Championship game. During his time in Tampa Bay, Williams improved his completion percentage each season.

:clap:

Williams was the only starting African-American quarterback in the NFL at that time, and dealt with racism from the fans, and even his own coaching staff.

Must have been a bad few years for Black "hard work and abilities", right? Right?

In his book Rise of the Black QB, author Jason Reid cited an incident in the 1978 Tampa Bay training camp, in which quarterbacks coach Bill Nelsen (White) began berating Williams in what was described as going beyond coaching and becoming a personal attack. "I think Coach Gibbs knew that it wasn't a matter of being coached hard," recalled Williams. "I mean, I played for Eddie Robinson at Grambling, so he knew I could handle that. But he (Gibbs) immediately sensed that something else was going on." Gibbs (also White), who was at the opposite end of the field, sprinted over to Nelsen and confronted him. Gibbs threw his clipboard down, pointed his finger in Nelsen's face and said, "Don't you ever talk to him like that again! Is that clear?" According to Williams, Nelsen never confronted Williams in that manner again.

DEI from Gibbs :-|| . The Buccs could have used more of it:

During his tenure with the Buccaneers, Williams was paid $120,000 a year, the lowest salary for a starting quarterback in the league and less than the salary of 12 backups. After the 1982 season, Williams asked for a $600,000 contract. Bucs owner Hugh Culverhouse refused to budge from his initial offer of $400,000 despite protests from coach John McKay. Feeling that Culverhouse was not paying him what an NFL starter should earn, Williams sat out the 1983 season. That year, the Bucs went 2–14, and did not make the playoffs again until the 1997 season 14 years later. Tampa Bay lost ten games in every season but one in that stretch, including 12 in a row from 1983 to 1994.

Karma. :---P

Oklahoma / Arizona Outlaws

After a year away from football, Williams signed with the Oklahoma Outlaws of the upstart United States Football League. The Outlaws briefly called Hall of Fame coach and quarterback guru Sid Gillman out of retirement as director of football operations, and Williams was Gillman's highest-profile signing. Williams signed a $3 million contract with a $1 million signing bonus, making him easily one of the highest-paid players in all of football. Years later, he recalled that he was won over when Outlaws owners William Tatham Sr. and Bill Tatham Jr. "treated me as a human," rather than "a piece of cattle in a stockyard."...

Yep, DEI from the Tathams after Williams had been treated so shabbily.

Washington

... He led the team to Super Bowl XXII in which they routed the Denver Broncos, becoming the first black quarterback to both play in and win a Super Bowl.

First to play in an SB. No "hard work and abilities" until 1988?

... On the day before Super Bowl XXII, Williams had a six-hour root canal surgery performed to repair a dental bridge abscess. On January 31, 1988, he engineered a 42–10 rout over the Broncos, who were led by quarterback John Elway. Williams completed 18 of 29 passes for 340 yards with four touchdown passes....

:clap: :clap: :clap:

With your first two examples having needed and benefited from DEI so their talents could be displayed, I think I'll quit while you're behind. Hopefully, this will convince you to drop the anti-DEI GQP :bs: that you've swallowed.

Anyhow, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I was a HUGE DC fan back then and it was a thrill to have both a hero QB, and finally a BLACK hero QB.

[O Really]

And don't forget about baseball. I'd say those guys in the Negro League, that weren't allowed in the majors before Jackie Robinson was given an opportunity, had plenty of "hard work and abilities".

[O Really]

"Blazing Saddles" was an excellent example of "DEI" at work. The governor sent Bart to be sheriff because he knew as a "ni-" he would be the most offensive to and hated by the town. And Bart was indeed received with hate and derision. No way ever would the town have hired him except through the DEI efforts of Guv Potamaine. But, because he was given an opportunity - for whatever reason - Bart earned the respect of the town.

It's funny how many people think DEI and affirmative action are the same, and that either one requires quotas or hiring of unqualified people. Quotas have been illegal since 1978, and even for the rather strict affirmative action programs for federal contractors, effort counts about as much as actual results, because if a contractor truly makes a good faith effort, the results will come. How do I know this? Because I've been in charge of compliance management for many federal contractors, with the responsibility of seeing that they meet requirements and don't get fined or shut down. I've sat in numerous OFCCP compliance reviews where the contractor (our client) might fail to have women or minorities and say "we've looked, but we can't find any". The OFCCP compliance officer would haul out a long list and ask "have you advertised here...visited here...spoken with these people...set up connections with..." and if our client could say "yes" and show documentation, all was well. But if they said "no" then that indicated less than a diligent effort and things got a little more tense. For those who might think an employer should be able to hire whoever they want without damgummint interference, I'd mostly agree. All they have to do is not bid on damgummint jobs.

[Jasmine]

I disagree. Black QBs didn’t attain their success through DEI practices. They succeeded because of their hard work and abilities. It began with guys like James Harris and continued with Doug Williams. Then QBs like Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham took it a step further, and then guys like Michael Vick completely changed the way the QB position is played with their ability to run. Today, dual-threat QBs (Lamar Jackson, Jaylen Hurts, Kyler Murray, Josh Allen, etc.) are all the rage. They succeeded because of because of their own greatness and thousands of hours of hard work.

There you go again, thinking that DEI is about compensating for lack of ability. Of course they were all enormously talented, but the early ones had to overcome tremendous resistance and only got their shots because of the INTENTIONAL removal of racist barriers - DEI.

James "Shack" Harris - Recruited by a Power 5 school? He played for HBCU Grambling State University despite:

Harris attended Carroll High in Monroe, where he led the football team to a Louisiana state championship in his sophomore year, and two perfect seasons. He was twice named to the all state football team. A straight-A student, Harris also played on the school's baseball team.

Now tell me that a White QB with that resume wouldn't have been playing for LSU.

As for pro football:

Continuing the American Football League's more liberal (than the NFL's) personnel policies, the Bills made Harris the first black player to start a season at quarterback in the history of pro football.

"more liberal" - Oh look, DEI.

Harris was also just the second black player in the modern era to start in any game as quarterback for a professional football team....

:think: It it your contention that prior to 1969 no Black QBs displayed "hard work and abilities"? Unless you're that racist you MUST admit that they had the "hard work and abilities" all along and it was only DEI that opened the door for them.

So, that example of yours utterly failed.

Doug Williams - Oh my, HBCU Grambling State University again. Imagine that.

Williams played quarterback for the Grambling State Tigers from 1974 to 1977.... Williams guided the Tigers to a 36–7 (.837 winning percentage) record as a four-year starter, and led the Tigers to three Southwestern Athletic Conference Championships. Williams was named Black College Player of the Year twice.

In 1977, Williams led the NCAA in several categories, including total yards from scrimmage (3,249), passing yards (3,286), touchdown passes (38), and yards per play (8.6).

He even played high school ball in BATON ROUGE. Gee, do you think he would have had success if LSU or other Power 5 team gave him a shot?

... Williams finished fourth in the Heisman Trophy voting, behind Earl Campbell, Terry Miller, and Ken MacAfee.

Despite the success that he enjoyed on the field, Tampa Bay Buccaneers offensive coordinator Joe Gibbs was the only NFL coach who visited Williams to work him out and scout him.

"the only NFL coach" :think: What if he was White?

It was 9 years after "Shack" Harris was drafted in the eighth round that Tampa Bay drafted Williams 17th overall. What do you think, no Black "hard work and abilities" in the interim?

... Tampa Bay, which had won just two games in the first two years of the franchise, went to the playoffs three times in five seasons with Williams as starter and played in the 1979 NFC Championship game. During his time in Tampa Bay, Williams improved his completion percentage each season.

:clap:

Williams was the only starting African-American quarterback in the NFL at that time, and dealt with racism from the fans, and even his own coaching staff.

Must have been a bad few years for Black "hard work and abilities", right? Right?

In his book Rise of the Black QB, author Jason Reid cited an incident in the 1978 Tampa Bay training camp, in which quarterbacks coach Bill Nelsen (White) began berating Williams in what was described as going beyond coaching and becoming a personal attack. "I think Coach Gibbs knew that it wasn't a matter of being coached hard," recalled Williams. "I mean, I played for Eddie Robinson at Grambling, so he knew I could handle that. But he (Gibbs) immediately sensed that something else was going on." Gibbs (also White), who was at the opposite end of the field, sprinted over to Nelsen and confronted him. Gibbs threw his clipboard down, pointed his finger in Nelsen's face and said, "Don't you ever talk to him like that again! Is that clear?" According to Williams, Nelsen never confronted Williams in that manner again.

DEI from Gibbs :-|| . The Buccs could have used more of it:

During his tenure with the Buccaneers, Williams was paid $120,000 a year, the lowest salary for a starting quarterback in the league and less than the salary of 12 backups. After the 1982 season, Williams asked for a $600,000 contract. Bucs owner Hugh Culverhouse refused to budge from his initial offer of $400,000 despite protests from coach John McKay. Feeling that Culverhouse was not paying him what an NFL starter should earn, Williams sat out the 1983 season. That year, the Bucs went 2–14, and did not make the playoffs again until the 1997 season 14 years later. Tampa Bay lost ten games in every season but one in that stretch, including 12 in a row from 1983 to 1994.

Karma. :---P

Oklahoma / Arizona Outlaws

After a year away from football, Williams signed with the Oklahoma Outlaws of the upstart United States Football League. The Outlaws briefly called Hall of Fame coach and quarterback guru Sid Gillman out of retirement as director of football operations, and Williams was Gillman's highest-profile signing. Williams signed a $3 million contract with a $1 million signing bonus, making him easily one of the highest-paid players in all of football. Years later, he recalled that he was won over when Outlaws owners William Tatham Sr. and Bill Tatham Jr. "treated me as a human," rather than "a piece of cattle in a stockyard."...

Yep, DEI from the Tathams after Williams had been treated so shabbily.

Washington

... He led the team to Super Bowl XXII in which they routed the Denver Broncos, becoming the first black quarterback to both play in and win a Super Bowl.

First to play in an SB. No "hard work and abilities" until 1988?

... On the day before Super Bowl XXII, Williams had a six-hour root canal surgery performed to repair a dental bridge abscess. On January 31, 1988, he engineered a 42–10 rout over the Broncos, who were led by quarterback John Elway. Williams completed 18 of 29 passes for 340 yards with four touchdown passes....

:clap: :clap: :clap:

With your first two examples having needed and benefited from DEI so their talents could be displayed, I think I'll quit while you're behind. Hopefully, this will convince you to drop the anti-DEI GQP :bs: that you've swallowed.

Anyhow, thanks for the trip down memory lane. I was a HUGE DC fan back then and it was a thrill to have both a hero QB, and finally a BLACK hero QB.

What specific government policy allowed the likes of James Harris and Doug Williams to become starting QBs?

[Vrede too]

What specific government policy allowed the likes of James Harris and Doug Williams to become starting QBs?

What a lame and wimpy response. Our chat was never limited to government DEI and there are no government DEI mandates now on private business except for government contractors and aid recipients. Sort of. Thanks to the CRA private business cannot be demonstrably racist or sexist. Are you saying that you long for the hateful days before the CRA, a decade before you were born. If so, :puke-left: :puke-left: :puke-left:

Along with the private DEI that I proved and you're desperately trying to change the subject away from, black QBs would have benefited in general terms from the CRA in accommodation, transportaion and other services before they became wealthy. Then, there was school desegregation. Before it, Blacks couldn't even enroll in SEC and other southern colleges.

Opps, even your deflection fails as badly as your Harris and Williams examples did.

[O Really]

What specific government policy allowed the likes of James Harris and Doug Williams to become starting QBs?

I don't think anybody said it was a specific government policy. Making a particular effort to provide opportunities isn't exclusively mandated by governments. No government required Branch Rickey to hire (over many objections by almost everybody) Jackie Robinson. There had been talented Black players before, but the league would not hire any. At all. At personal risk, Rickey gave Robinson a chance. And that's at the heart of what we now (and recently) call "DEI"

[Jasmine]

What specific government policy allowed the likes of James Harris and Doug Williams to become starting QBs?

What a lame and wimpy response. Our chat was never limited to government DEI and there are no government DEI mandates now on private business except for government contractors and aid recipients. Sort of. Thanks to the CRA private business cannot be demonstrably racist or sexist. Are you saying that you long for the hateful days before the CRA, a decade before you were born. If so, :puke-left: :puke-left: :puke-left:

Along with the private DEI that I proved and you're desperately trying to change the subject away from, black QBs would have benefited in general terms from the CRA in accommodation, transportaion and other services before they became wealthy. Then, there was school desegregation. Before it, Blacks couldn't even enroll in SEC and other southern colleges.

Opps, even your deflection fails as badly as your Harris and Williams examples did.

I’m not deflecting at all. I have no problem with private companies imposing DEI policies. Ask Cubbie. My stance has always been that purely private entities should have the freedom to set their own agendas. They should be able to hire and fire whomever they want. Be inclusive as they want, or be as discriminatory as they want. Your business, your choices.

I am completely against government-imposed DEI. Always will be.

And again, I think “diversity” is completely overrated.

[Jasmine]

What specific government policy allowed the likes of James Harris and Doug Williams to become starting QBs?

I don't think anybody said it was a specific government policy. Making a particular effort to provide opportunities isn't exclusively mandated by governments. No government required Branch Rickey to hire (over many objections by almost everybody) Jackie Robinson. There had been talented Black players before, but the league would not hire any. At all. At personal risk, Rickey gave Robinson a chance. And that's at the heart of what we now (and recently) call "DEI"

I agree with you. My contention is that “DEI” should be voluntary, never government-imposed.

[GoCubsGo]

I agree with you. My contention is that “DEI” should be voluntary, never government-imposed.

The problem with that is more often than not especially with no impetus or consequences there will be no change. It doesn't always happen organically.

A civil war was fought because racist people refused to change.

[Jasmine]

I agree with you. My contention is that “DEI” should be voluntary, never government-imposed.

The problem with that is more often than not especially with no impetus or consequences there will be no change. It doesn't always happen organically.

A civil war was fought because racist people refused to change.

You definitely have a point. But to me, that’s where family and society come in. We need to effect change, person by person, generation by generation. I bet 50 years ago, gays were nowhere near as accepted as they are now. Societies are always changing - evolving or devolving (depending on your point of view). In my opinion, government-forced changes mostly perpetuate problems more than resolve them. Example: If you hate black people and see government-imposed policies that provide advantages to blacks, you’re just going to despise blacks even more.

Personally, I don’t begrudge anyone for their successes - government-imposed or not. It’s just a waste of time feeling bitterness at someone because of certain advantages (real or perceived). I believe in simply being grateful for what you have.

[Supsalemgr]

I agree with you. My contention is that “DEI” should be voluntary, never government-imposed.

The problem with that is more often than not especially with no impetus or consequences there will be no change. It doesn't always happen organically.

A civil war was fought because racist people refused to change.

You definitely have a point. But to me, that’s where family and society come in. We need to effect change, person by person, generation by generation. I bet 50 years ago, gays were nowhere near as accepted as they are now. Societies are always changing - evolving or devolving (depending on your point of view). In my opinion, government-forced changes mostly perpetuate problems more than resolve them. Example: If you hate black people and see government-imposed policies that provide advantages to blacks, you’re just going to despise blacks even more.

Personally, I don’t begrudge anyone for their successes - government-imposed or not. It’s just a waste of time feeling bitterness at someone because of certain advantages (real or perceived). I believe in simply being grateful for what you have.

Good point Jasmine. :thumbup:

[Vrede too]

What a lame and wimpy response. Our chat was never limited to government DEI and there are no government DEI mandates now on private business except for government contractors and aid recipients. Sort of. Thanks to the CRA private business cannot be demonstrably racist or sexist. Are you saying that you long for the hateful days before the CRA, a decade before you were born? If so, :puke-left: :puke-left: :puke-left:

Along with the private DEI that I proved and you're desperately trying to change the subject away from, black QBs would have benefited in general terms from the CRA in accommodation, transportaion and other services before they became wealthy. Then, there was school desegregation. Before it, Blacks couldn't even enroll in SEC and other southern colleges.

Opps, even your deflection fails as badly as your Harris and Williams examples did.

I’m not deflecting at all. I have no problem with private companies imposing DEI policies. Ask Cubbie. My stance has always been that purely private entities should have the freedom to set their own agendas. They should be able to hire and fire whomever they want. Be inclusive as they want, or be as discriminatory as they want. Your business, your choices.

I am completely against government-imposed DEI. Always will be.

And again, I think “diversity” is completely overrated.

What GoCubsGo says.

That's a clear 'Yes' in response to my question.
There it is, Jasmine and SoupySales support:
Jim Crow (private);
Whites-only lunch counters;
Blacks forced to the backs of private buses;
Whites-only private schools and housing;
Asian and even native Hawaiian free development, transportation, employment, wholesale and retail in Hawaii;
Women-free workplaces, etc.

Bigots and their extreme dogmatic allies like Jasmine and SoupySales are disgusting.

[Supsalemgr]

I'm crushed! Being labeled by Vrede is a badge of honor.

[Vrede too]

I'm crushed! Being labeled by Vrede is a badge of honor.

My labels are irrelevant. You label yourself an extremist bigot ally here, as anyone can read whether or not you ever have the balls to admit it. Was Bull Connor one of your heroes in your youth?

[O Really]

Companies hiring who they want and serving (or denying service to) who they want is fine if that place is in a societal vacuum, with no links to any governing body. That situation is rare if it could exist at all. But if our society, "the people" hold expectations or standards of ourselves, we rely to some degree on our elected government to enforce those standards. So if most of us don't want or support racial/gender discrimination, and the government passes a law against it, then the law should be enforced across the board. Irony: guy with a federal small business loan to start his business wants the damgummint out of his business.

Most people would agree that people building in a public area should be required to build according to standards and not just put up tar paper shacks. Same thing as non-discrimination requirements.