What is crossing the line?

[Jasmine]

From Fox News:

Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers arrested a second student who participated in anti-Israel protests at Columbia University, after a third student opted to deport themselves from the U.S.

Leqaa Kordia, who is from the West Bank, had a student visa canceled in 2022 "for lack of attendance" and was detained by the agency for the outdated visa. DHS said Kordia was previously arrested in April for an alleged role in the protests, but the New York Police Department told Fox News Digital it does not have an arrest record under their name.

"Columbia has no record of this individual being registered as a current or former student at the University," the university said in a statement.

"It is a privilege to be granted a visa to live and study in the United States of America," Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said in a statement. “When you advocate for violence and terrorism, that privilege should be revoked, and you should not be in this country. I am glad to see one of the Columbia University terrorist sympathizers use the CBP Home app to self-deport."

A question for you guys: How do you balance between free speech and advocating for violence?

I firmly believe that everyone should have the right to voice their opinions - even the most unpopular ones. That would include American-hating foreigners who are legally in our country (i.e. student visas). You can even root for Gaza if you want. Thus, I disagree with Trump booting out foreign students who are protesting at universities like Columbia.

But these people be able to advocate for violence? I kinda think they do.

I think there’s a difference between advocating for violence and actually committing violence. If you commit violence against the U.S., I think you should have your head lopped off and your intestines ripped out. But if someone simply says, “I hope all Jews die in a plane crash,” is that a criminal offense? Or is that free speech?

Thoughts?

[GoCubsGo]

You didn't link the article, but the quote you gave did not show any violence except for whatever Kristi Noem said and I don't believer her word.

Section three of the 14th amendment (which trump is trying to nullify in part).

Section 3

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Pretty good parameters to start with.

Of course there's plenty of statutory and civil examples, yelling fire in a theater, expounding Sandy Hook never happened, Fox News defamation, lying and libeling election workers etc.

[GoCubsGo]

Ha!
FAFO

Pubs don't learn.

Nancy Mace sued for defamation over allegations in stunning floor speech

[O Really]

There's a long legal history of what is protected speech, what is "inciting to riot" what is common vandalism, and what is terrorism. There's no need to reinvent a well established legal wheel just because Kristi wants to add "tough bitch" to her cosplaying, or because Trump got his little feelings hurt.

[GoCubsGo]

Speaking of advocating for violence, where do the Jan 6ers fit in this scenario?

[Jasmine]

You didn't link the article, but the quote you gave did not show any violence except for whatever Kristi Noem said and I don't believer her word.

Section three of the 14th amendment (which trump is trying to nullify in part).

Section 3

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Pretty good parameters to start with.

Of course there's plenty of statutory and civil examples, yelling fire in a theater, expounding Sandy Hook never happened, Fox News defamation, lying and libeling election workers etc.

Wait. If I say, “Sandy Hook never happened,” that is a criminal act?

[Jasmine]

Speaking of advocating for violence, where do the Jan 6ers fit in this scenario?

The people who broke into the capital should be charged with trespassing. The ones who just loitered outside in a public area shouldn’t be charged with anything. I never bought into the insurrection accusation.

[GoCubsGo]

Wait. If I say, “Sandy Hook never happened,” that is a criminal act?

Civil.

And it cost Alex Jones everything.

Just like Rudy and Fox paying 787 million.

[GoCubsGo]

Speaking of advocating for violence, where do the Jan 6ers fit in this scenario?

The people who broke into the capital should be charged with trespassing. The ones who just loitered outside in a public area shouldn’t be charged with anything. I never bought into the insurrection accusation.

Did you actually watch the videos yourself or are you relying on other people to tell you what happened?

Trespassing.

That's sad.

[Jasmine]

Wait. If I say, “Sandy Hook never happened,” that is a criminal act?

Civil.

And it cost Alex Jones everything.

Shouldn’t that be free speech? Some people claim man never landed on the moon or that the holocaust never happened. They can be sued for that?

[Jasmine]

Speaking of advocating for violence, where do the Jan 6ers fit in this scenario?

The people who broke into the capital should be charged with trespassing. The ones who just loitered outside in a public area shouldn’t be charged with anything. I never bought into the insurrection accusation.

Did you actually watch the videos yourself or are you relying on other people to tell you what happened?

I watched news footage. If that was an insurrection, that was the weakest insurrection in history. If I wanted to plan an insurrection, there would have been rivers of blood shed and politicians overthrown. Jan. 6 was kinda lame.

Like I said, the people who trespassed should be charged for that. And vandalism (for those that committed damage on the property). It’s not unlike student protestors who take over a chancellors office and refuse to leave.

[GoCubsGo]

It was sedition.

[neoplacebo]

Wait. If I say, “Sandy Hook never happened,” that is a criminal act?

Civil.

And it cost Alex Jones everything.

Shouldn’t that be free speech? Some people claim man never landed on the moon or that the holocaust never happened. They can be sued for that?

Not believing men landed on the moon or not believing the Holocaust happened are not statements that libel or slander anyone in particular. When Alex Jones lies for years that Sandy Hook was faked, or when Rudy lied about GA election workers, or when trump kept lying and defaming that Carroll woman, all those things caused harm to specific individuals.

Saying no one landed on the moon or that the earth is flat are not things that any civil or criminal court would even consider. Anyone trying to file a court case in either of those instances would probably be fined by the court for trying to file such a case.

[Whack9]

Speaking of advocating for violence, where do the Jan 6ers fit in this scenario?

The people who broke into the capital should be charged with trespassing. The ones who just loitered outside in a public area shouldn’t be charged with anything. I never bought into the insurrection accusation.

Did you actually watch the videos yourself or are you relying on other people to tell you what happened?

I watched news footage. If that was an insurrection, that was the weakest insurrection in history. If I wanted to plan an insurrection, there would have been rivers of blood shed and politicians overthrown. Jan. 6 was kinda lame.

Like I said, the people who trespassed should be charged for that. And vandalism (for those that committed damage on the property). It’s not unlike student protestors who take over a chancellors office and refuse to leave.

Nope. No one was trying to interfere in anything related to the peaceful transfer of power. Totally not the intent. /S

Just a lil bit of trespassing is all:



The fact that a very important event was occuring related to the transfer of power plays a huge part in this being a difference between simple trespassing and something way more serious. This is something that's also common in other laws when charges are placed on individuals, and there are many similar nuances. If you're driving a getaway car and your accomplice murders someone in a botched robbery, even though you didn't personal murder the person, nor commit the actual robbery, you're also going to get charged with murder.

[O Really]

Jasmine, Jasmine - ignore the opinions of your lefty friends, ignore all the first-hand news reports of the day, even Faux, and ignore the comments of the congresscritters who had to scamper to safer lockup while their offices were vandalized. Ignore all that. Just listen to what the participants themselves said, in public and on video, that they were doing.

"Trespassing"
Context matters.

[GoCubsGo]

Yeah!

[Vrede too]

In the OP example. Leqaa Kordia had his student visa canceled in 2022. This automatically makes him subject to deportation. So, questions of the type of protests and his speech are moot. This is quite different from the case of Mahmoud Khalil, a permanent resident with a green card.
viewtopic.php?p=209950#p209950
So far, the government has not provided any evidence that he incited violence or supported Hamas. Even Ann Coulter is skeptical of the arrest. Ann Coulter. Khalil's "crime" is that he accepted a role that I have many times, negotiating with the cops on behalf of the demonstrators. Both sides will still do their "jobs", but it can be done without anyone getting hurt.

The hundreds of millions in judgements against Alex Jones weren't because he merely said, “Sandy Hook never happened.” As neoplacebo indicates, he was found to have defamed the parents, calling them "crisis actors" and shills for the gun control outfits, etc. This led to the worst kind of harassment and death threats. Defamation is NOT protected by the 1A and never has been.

It doesn't matter that the J6 MAGAt clowns weren't more violent. They were violent enough. I'm unaware of any occupation of a chancellor's office where the students went to war with the cops - shields, tasing, pepper spray, crushing the cops in doorways, threatening to hang the VP. Got any examples where the students were so violent?

[Vrede too]

Fayetteville Tesla protest against Elon Musk draw in hundreds (1:48 video)

No vandalism or violence, just outraged folks. GoNCGo!

[O Really]

I was thinking about the J6 ummm, "participants" and thought of a couple items of contrast. Let's say there was one guy, just one, who went to the Capitol on January 6 and, using a baseball bat, took a swat at a cop, broke a window and went running down the halls breaking things. So what would happen? He'd get caught, probably roughed up a bit, and hauled away. Would the charges end with simple trespassing? I don't think so. Short version, they'd throw the book at him and he'd give a pretty stiff sentence. And nobody other than a few loons would go around talking about him in heroic terms, demand his release, or expect him to get a presidential pardon. News event for a week and life goes on. But let a huge crowd assemble, storm the Capitol and rampage around with severe injuries of cops and threats to hang the US VP and Pelosi, and the cult gushes in awe and demands they get treated as gently as a KKK member in Mississippi in 1940's.

Some trumpers have complained that there were far fewer arrests during BLM protests/riots than J6. Well, not that the events are comparable in the least other than both had people yelling and stuff broken, not the least of which is the location and event. The other reason might be that while BLM protesters might have hidden their identity, threw their rocks or whatever and moved on, the J6 people took selfies and posed for pics in congressional offices bragging about their "invasion". The BLM people vandalized empty buildings; the J6 people broke into the crowded US Capitol building with expressed attempt to disrupt or stop an essential government function.

Can you say "false equivalency?"

[Vrede too]

BLM was not violent. It's more accurate to call them the George Floyd protests. That covers the peaceful protests, 93-96% of the total, and the rioting.

George Floyd was murdered on May 25, 2020.

By June 22, 2020, police had made 14,000 arrests in 49 cities since the protests began, with most arrests being locals charged with low-level offenses such as violating curfews or blocking roadways.

Thousands more followed throughout Justice Summer. No one pardoned them.

The MAGAts complaining that there were far fewer arrests during the George Floyd protests/riots than J6 are lying crybabies. We also all saw the police being far more violent with George Floyd protestors than they were with the violent J6 assholes.

List of police violence incidents during George Floyd protests

Plus, the National Guard was called out for George Floyd protests in multiple cities. TRE45QN prevented its mobilization on J6.

... At least 200 cities in the U.S. had imposed curfews by early June 2020, while more than 30 states and Washington, D.C. activated over 96,000 National Guard, State Guard, 82nd Airborne, and 3rd Infantry Regiment service members. The deployment, when combined with preexisting deployments related to the COVID-19 pandemic and other natural disasters, constituted the largest military operation other than war in U.S. history....