Egypt

[Ombudsman]

it's not me who wants to differentiate between words with different meanings – that would be the different meanings attributed to these two very different words
and no need for a knowledge test to weed out the uninformed.
The 1st step as described by President Jefferson would be to work toward a more educated citizenry. I believe in free speech but outright lies designed to inflame the ignorant and to create further ignorance of important issues is no different than crying, “Fire” is a crowded theater – it is destroying this country and has to stop
Weather it comes from the home sculed, those sucking on the fox teat or from many other liberal and conservative sources, this lack of informed decision making will destroy our society.
I know the libs do it too, but Reagans war on the middle class can have not other outcome than a return to something very like feudalism – king george would be loving the Koch bros manipulation of the uneducated masses
Education is the key but more and more we are turning our educational system into a vocational training ground for worker ants – time to put philosophy, art, literature, civics and all those other “hard to measure” classes back into the basic education and leave much of the vocational training to the jobs that require training. Let’s educate our population to understand history, cause and effect, critical thinking before we teach them how to put pegs in holes.

In Jefferson's time they attempted to weed out the uneducated by refusing to allow women and blacks the right to vote. It was more difficult to cast a vote then, sometimes requiring a great deal of travel, and as a result only those very serious about the process did vote. Today it's so easy to vote, you're likely to get all types to vote.

are you trying to deliberately miss my point.
jefferson had slaves too - does that make everything he said and did wrong? I don't think so.

jefferson believed in education - we have lost that belief in our current corporate owned government - an educated populous doesn't put up with as much bullshit and tends to be more unruly

could that be why jebbie removed "civics" from the required high school curriculum and why all the corporate cons are trying to destroy the public school system by diverting resources to the flat earth home schulers?

I'm not deliberately trying to miss yours, but I wonder if that's what you're doing to mine. I'm agreeing with you that democracy works better with knowledgeable voters. You're blaming the corporate world, home schooling, Fox, etc. So what's your solution, to outlaw those? My solution is to require a test prior to issuing a voter registration card.

[billy.pilgrim]

it's not me who wants to differentiate between words with different meanings – that would be the different meanings attributed to these two very different words
and no need for a knowledge test to weed out the uninformed.
The 1st step as described by President Jefferson would be to work toward a more educated citizenry. I believe in free speech but outright lies designed to inflame the ignorant and to create further ignorance of important issues is no different than crying, “Fire” is a crowded theater – it is destroying this country and has to stop
Weather it comes from the home sculed, those sucking on the fox teat or from many other liberal and conservative sources, this lack of informed decision making will destroy our society.
I know the libs do it too, but Reagans war on the middle class can have not other outcome than a return to something very like feudalism – king george would be loving the Koch bros manipulation of the uneducated masses
Education is the key but more and more we are turning our educational system into a vocational training ground for worker ants – time to put philosophy, art, literature, civics and all those other “hard to measure” classes back into the basic education and leave much of the vocational training to the jobs that require training. Let’s educate our population to understand history, cause and effect, critical thinking before we teach them how to put pegs in holes.

In Jefferson's time they attempted to weed out the uneducated by refusing to allow women and blacks the right to vote. It was more difficult to cast a vote then, sometimes requiring a great deal of travel, and as a result only those very serious about the process did vote. Today it's so easy to vote, you're likely to get all types to vote.

are you trying to deliberately miss my point.
jefferson had slaves too - does that make everything he said and did wrong? I don't think so.

jefferson believed in education - we have lost that belief in our current corporate owned government - an educated populous doesn't put up with as much bullshit and tends to be more unruly

could that be why jebbie removed "civics" from the required high school curriculum and why all the corporate cons are trying to destroy the public school system by diverting resources to the flat earth home schulers?

I'm not deliberately trying to miss yours, but I wonder if that's what you're doing to mine. I'm agreeing with you that democracy works better with knowledgeable voters. You're blaming the corporate world, home schooling, Fox, etc. So what's your solution, to outlaw those? My solution is to require a test prior to issuing a voter registration card.

Just plain and simple education, back to the basics of a liberal arts type education that provides a basic scientific and mathematical background, along with a firm understanding of history, literature and critical thinking and let the wild rumpus begin

Consequences are very real; having a 24 hour a day “voice of the rich and powerful” promoting lies and misinformation does have a negative consequence on our society. Look at our current set of Cons – totally misinformed (ignorant) on voter fraud, ben-ghazi, the irs, acorn, fast and furious and on and on – misinformed to the extent that they are not capable of making an intelligent decision
I don’t propose a gag on the likes of fox – but maybe some kind of truth in journalism standards should be in place to stop the more egregious lies, as for misinformation – again there should be standards that the whole story is presented.
betcha – rollie believes okeefe really wore his pimp outfit to be acorn office
or that the irs targeted conservative groups
or that acorn committed voter fraud
or that lil bush isn’t a war criminal

[Ombudsman]

Just plain and simple education, back to the basics of a liberal arts type education that provides a basic scientific and mathematical background, along with a firm understanding of history, literature and critical thinking and let the wild rumpus begin

It's not like that's missing from society. It exists in far more abundance now than in Jefferson's day. Why not a more practical solution?

[Bungalow Bill]

I think many of the founding fathers had a rather idealistic and limited view
of who would be voting. The voters would be gentlemen like themselves and
the educated classes somewhat below them. I don't think they conceived of
the "rabble" as having an important part to play in political life. I believe quite
a few were disappointed when it turned out the persons who they considered
not quite up to snuff would be voting and playing a role in goernment. It is
unfortuante that many voters don't know much about basic politics, but some
kind of eligibility test is going too far.

[rstrong]

I won't pretend to understand the long term consequences of what's going on in Egypt.

Egypt's future is grim. Really grim. But that has nothing to do with the Arab Spring or Morsi.

Gwynne Dyer explains...

[O Really]

I seem to have missed it, so can somebody explain exactly how is the life of the average Egyptian better with all the Muslim chaos than it was under the 30ish years or relative peace and prosperity under Mubarak? Not that Mubarak is a sweet guy, but still...

[O Really]

That's the thing about dictatorships, chaos almost always ensues when they fall or the dictator, other than family dynasties like North Korea's, dies. About the only exception is when the dictator moves the nation to democracy and an end to dictatorship while he still can.

Democracy doesn't fit all societies equally well.

[O Really]

True, but it does seem to be what most Egyptians want and we shouldn't judge their capability for it until they've given it a long try. Ours took 76 years and a devastating Civil War before it sort of settled down.

Yes, and look at the differences in time, context, and societal homogeneity. The country to be called the "United States" got to start with a fairly clean slate and a relatively low population density. They were familiar with examples of something approaching democratic structure since 1215. They were largely an English-speaking bunch, and mostly Christianish in religion. Compare that to trying to change the way an entire country runs, particularly when that country is filled with people who do not agree on much of anything.

[O Really]

Hey, I posted "True". I'm just not ready so very soon after deposing a dictator to make the determination that you seem to be that they can't handle democracy. It seems rather xenophobic to me. Should we have given up on Germany so readily or is it different because they are white Europeans?

I made no such determination that Egyptians can't handle democracy. Sometimes that form of government works; sometimes not so much. But since they dumped Mubarak, they've had military rule, then an elected Islamic ideologue and rise of Muslim Brotherhood, military again... Seems to me I might be having buyer's remorse. I'm guessing the life of the average Iraqi is still worse than before W's great adventure. The countries formerly known as the Soviet Union, on the other hand, generally seem better off after dumping the commies.

[neoplacebo]

Hey, I posted "True". I'm just not ready so very soon after deposing a dictator to make the determination that you seem to be that they can't handle democracy. It seems rather xenophobic to me. Should we have given up on Germany so readily or is it different because they are white Europeans?

I made no such determination that Egyptians can't handle democracy. Sometimes that form of government works; sometimes not so much. But since they dumped Mubarak, they've had military rule, then an elected Islamic ideologue and rise of Muslim Brotherhood, military again... Seems to me I might be having buyer's remorse. I'm guessing the life of the average Iraqi is still worse than before W's great adventure. The countries formerly known as the Soviet Union, on the other hand, generally seem better off after dumping the commies.

After the fall of the USSR, it was pretty tough for most folks since all most of them knew was communism; if I remember correctly, in the early 90's there was quite a big movement by some to return to the old ways. But now, I agree that all the former Republics are better off. I also think that democracy has less of a chance in the middle east than it did in the former USSR. As long as religious factionalism is prevalent in that part of the world, I don't see much of a chance for true democratic type rule. And if anything, it seems to me that religious factionalism is becoming more prevalent as time goes by.

[O Really]

After the fall of the USSR, it was pretty tough for most folks since all most of them knew was communism; if I remember correctly, in the early 90's there was quite a big movement by some to return to the old ways. But now, I agree that all the former Republics are better off.

It was tough, but it had been tough before, which is largely why the Soviets collapsed. Prices rose drastically, but shortages got better. Wanting to "go back" probably also depended a lot on where you were in the old pecking order.

[neoplacebo]

After the fall of the USSR, it was pretty tough for most folks since all most of them knew was communism; if I remember correctly, in the early 90's there was quite a big movement by some to return to the old ways. But now, I agree that all the former Republics are better off.

It was tough, but it had been tough before, which is largely why the Soviets collapsed. Prices rose drastically, but shortages got better. Wanting to "go back" probably also depended a lot on where you were in the old pecking order.

True; the ones who had been members of the "ruling class" longed for the old days for sure. But any sort of systemic universal change such as that generally results in a period of hard times for most; same with our own country. I think the religious aspect of it is what makes democracy more or less doomed in the middle east; the Chechens seem to reinforce that concept to me.....when you're a religious fanatic, the type of government you have is a secondary issue it would seem. And to the most religious of the religious (I'm talking associate Jesus or Prophet in training here) the type of government you want falls right in line with your extreme religious beliefs. I will say the countries of the middle east almost require a strongman dictator type just to keep things from going to hell.

[Cowboy]

I will say the countries of the middle east almost require a strongman dictator type just to keep things from going to hell.

Like Saddam Hussein, Mubarak and Bashar al-Assad?

[neoplacebo]

I will say the countries of the middle east almost require a strongman dictator type just to keep things from going to hell.

Like Saddam Hussein, Mubarak and Bashar al-Assad?

yeah, pretty much.

[neoplacebo]

I will say the countries of the middle east almost require a strongman dictator type just to keep things from going to hell.

Like Saddam Hussein, Mubarak and Bashar al-Assad?

Or our former darlings - the Shah, Pinochet, Somoza, Batista, El Salvador and Guatemala's juntas, Thieu, Noriega, etc.

.....when you're a religious fanatic, the type of government you have is a secondary issue it would seem...

Like America, or at least parts of it?

yeah, pretty much.

[neoplacebo]

I will say the countries of the middle east almost require a strongman dictator type just to keep things from going to hell.

Like Saddam Hussein, Mubarak and Bashar al-Assad?

All of those rulers had, and have, factions, sects, tribes, and hangers on both on the "for" the guy and "against" the guy side. There is no true plurality anywhere over there except maybe Israel, and even they have their hawks and doves. And let us not forget our own country's long and storied support of the House of Saud, not exactly what you would call "freedom." Saudi Arabia is probably the worst of the lot; they just have enough money to spread around so no large enough dissent is likely to form against the royal family.

[Bungalow Bill]

Mubarak was our guy until one day he wasn't anymore. I doubt Morsi would
ever have been our guy in that way. And that military aid will keep on flowing,
since our national security is more important than democracy. Big surprise. If
you want to have a democracy you can't call on the military to step in every time
the elected leader does something you don't like.

[Cowboy]

Mubarak was our guy until one day he wasn't anymore.

So was Saddam Hussein.

[Bungalow Bill]

Very true. Then Saddam wandered off the reservation and that can't
be allowed to happen.

[Cowboy]

How did Mubarak wander off the reservation?