Gun Legislation

[Roland Deschain]

O'really your true ignorance of the process of gun sales is showing. NICS will STOP a purchase immediately if the buyer is in the system as criminal. However, NICS regularly (and is supposed to all the time) holds purchases for up to 7 days so that the information can be reviewed if it seems "suspicious". After that review the purchase can either move forward or be halted. In my experience multiple purchases were one of the most frequently held. .

Sorry, I stand corrected. I guess if NICS keeps that information it should be pretty easy for them to identify multiple purchases. I wonder why it doesn't. I'm sure your experience is far more than mine. BTW, do you happen to know how long the data stays in the NICS database?

I do not know how long data is held in NICS reference suspicious or delayed purchases. To me it appeared that it was at least several years just by recognizing names of purchasers and remembering the holds. Denied purchases seem to stick around and keep certain folks from ever buying. I guess those are the ones with criminal records etc.

[O Really]

Opps, maybe I'm not wrong. "Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day."
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/f ... 98-on-nics

So NICS will keep records of those turned down, but not of those passed. So unless they change the regulations in place since 1998, they really couldn't delay anybody who had passed before because unless he tried to buy it the same day, they wouldn't have the record. Would be nice if they could keep the records of all purchases, wouldn't it?

[Roland Deschain]

Opps, maybe I'm not wrong. "Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day."
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/f ... 98-on-nics

So NICS will keep records of those turned down, but not of those passed. So unless they change the regulations in place since 1998, they really couldn't delay anybody who had passed before because unless he tried to buy it the same day, they wouldn't have the record. Would be nice if they could keep the records of all purchases, wouldn't it?

Again, you have the 4473 to track the allowed purchases and even the stopped transactions. I can see why the allowed purchases are not tracked by NICS. It becomes simply a matter of storage space and access to data.

[O Really]

No, it's not storage space. Given the data on the intake form (print or online), you could probably keep it on a laptop. (slight exaggeration, but not much) They are prohibited by law from keeping the information. But access...yes, that's the ticket. They aren't allowed access after the fact. And you can't track a purchase with a 4473 unless you already know the purchase occurred and where it occurred. Let's say you think Mr.B bought two guns last week. How would you track that from 4473's? One he bought in Backwater, VA, and the other he bought in Redneckus, SC. To "track" his purchases, you'd have to ask every gun shop within a big radius if he bought anything there.

[O Really]

Here's the thing, Roland - you thought NICS kept the purchase approval data for some unspecified period of time, and were able to identify suspicious behaviour, and you were OK with that. But now that you know they don't keep it, can't keep it, and are basically toothless with regard to being predictive, I'm betting you would oppose any effort to change the regs and let them actually use the data they collect. Am I right?

[Roland Deschain]

Here's the thing, Roland - you thought NICS kept the purchase approval data for some unspecified period of time, and were able to identify suspicious behaviour, and you were OK with that. But now that you know they don't keep it, can't keep it, and are basically toothless with regard to being predictive, I'm betting you would oppose any effort to change the regs and let them actually use the data they collect. Am I right?

No, I said that they kept unapproved and suspicious (delayed) purchase information. I never mentioned APPROVED sales. However, I would be fine with them keeping the data from all approved sales and using it in the future. Again, it is a storage issue when you consider the thousands of legal approved sales that take place everyday. That is a chunk of data to keep track of. Point is, legal sales really have no need for further tracking because they are legal. Unless of course you are talking about trying to limit the number of firearms a person can purchase within a certain time period...then there is that pesky darned old Constitution again and that infringement deal

[O Really]

The fundamental point being where we started - that without the good luck of a gun store owner voluntarily reporting what he considered suspicious sales to ATF, they would not have caught the illegal gun-runner. That's what the ATF says, seems to be an accurate statement. NICS is better than nothing, but not much. It may not be illegal to buy 10 guns in a week, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask someone who does that what they're doing with them. I'd be willing to bet that most people who buy a bunch of guns in a short period of time aren't just adding to their own personal arsenal. I'd further be willing to bet that most US citizens and most judges would consider it a reasonable crime-preventive question to ask, "dude, whatcha gonna do with all those guns?" If, as long as you're not caught for a crime, you can get cleared by NICS every day or every other day forever, there's definitely something missing in the system.

[O Really]

BTW, if they could collect the data from the NICS check, it could run on the same type app as shows you everything in inventory at Lowe's or Amazon. You can't seriously think storage space is an issue.

[Roland Deschain]

The fundamental point being where we started - that without the good luck of a gun store owner voluntarily reporting what he considered suspicious sales to ATF, they would not have caught the illegal gun-runner. That's what the ATF says, seems to be an accurate statement. NICS is better than nothing, but not much. It may not be illegal to buy 10 guns in a week, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask someone who does that what they're doing with them. I'd be willing to bet that most people who buy a bunch of guns in a short period of time aren't just adding to their own personal arsenal. I'd further be willing to bet that most US citizens and most judges would consider it a reasonable crime-preventive question to ask, "dude, whatcha gonna do with all those guns?" If, as long as you're not caught for a crime, you can get cleared by NICS every day or every other day forever, there's definitely something missing in the system.

I disagree. It is my experience with NICS that a one time purchase of five AR's should have flagged that sale. Might not have stopped it but would have at least put the delay on. I'm not sure why NICS missed it but in my past dealings with them I would have been very surprised for it to have been missed. I will agree that it is not unreasonable to ask what/why someone is buying an all out arsenal in a single purchase and in most cases that should be considered suspicious. I can however, see a few circumstances where it would be totally legit.

And yes I do consider storage and access an issue. Maybe not the actual holding of the information but accessing later. It is definitely not an issue right now but after several years of thousands of sales a day that is going to be a lot of data to have to dig through to find a person....especially trying to do it fast.

[O Really]

Why are you being so dense about data storage, do you think you are living in the pre-computer age? There's no "have to dig through to find a person", just enter the name and the computer does it instantly - exactly like the search feature and the member list on this forum.

Or like Googling "NICS"
I'll bet the total number of firearm transactions nationally aren't more than the total number of Wal-Mart purchases for all products. Does anybody think Wal-Mart has a storage or access problem with its sales or inventory records?
Nope. Just another instance of holding up a paper tiger so the masses will think somebody's doing something without incurring the ire of those whose name must not be spoken.

There are some good reasons for buying a bunch of guns at once, though. Preparing for the zombie apocolypse, baby shower gifts for the cousins, stock up before the trial... or selling at the no-license-required flea market or at the car-trunk mall in NYC... good reasons all. Best reason, though - "because you can."

[Roland Deschain]

Why are you being so dense about data storage, do you think you are living in the pre-computer age? There's no "have to dig through to find a person", just enter the name and the computer does it instantly - exactly like the search feature and the member list on this forum.

Or like Googling "NICS"
I'll bet the total number of firearm transactions nationally aren't more than the total number of Wal-Mart purchases for all products. Does anybody think Wal-Mart has a storage or access problem with its sales or inventory records?
Nope. Just another instance of holding up a paper tiger so the masses will think somebody's doing something without incurring the ire of those whose name must not be spoken.

There are some good reasons for buying a bunch of guns at once, though. Preparing for the zombie apocolypse, baby shower gifts for the cousins, stock up before the trial... or selling at the no-license-required flea market or at the car-trunk mall in NYC... good reasons all. Best reason, though - "because you can."

Surely you understand that you are trying to compare apples to oranges don't you? The walmart sales/inventory records are a finite amount of data that changes around as inventory comes in and goes out but it is still fairly stable amount. Your suggestion to track every sale, legal, stopped, and delayed creates a situation that leads to an infinite amount of date that will have to be stored and accessed. That is why I said there would probably not be a problem for now. However, in the future when trying to dig through a couple hundred million records I bet the system will slow down a bit.

Love the vredeism in your ideas of when large purchases might be acceptable. However, that smart aleck attitude reduces your credibility and you are above that. I even said I can think of a few and very few circumstances where bulk purhases would be legit. Unfortunately, none of them are in your list.

[Ombudsman]

Oh look, Mad Roland is still obsessed with guns. What a shock!

[O Really]

Love the vredeism in your ideas of when large purchases might be acceptable. However, that smart aleck attitude reduces your credibility and you are above that. I even said I can think of a few and very few circumstances where bulk purhases would be legit. Unfortunately, none of them are in your list.

Nope. Of the examples I gave, one was pure humor (the zombies), one was based roughly on the incident in Kentucky where the 5-year old used his own rifle to shoot his sister. And the other three are quite realistic, and unfortunately part of the root of the problem.

[homerfobe]

Oh look, the Bobsey Twins have kissed and made up.

[O Really]

Surely you understand that you are trying to compare apples to oranges don't you? The walmart sales/inventory records are a finite amount of data that changes around as inventory comes in and goes out but it is still fairly stable amount. Your suggestion to track every sale, legal, stopped, and delayed creates a situation that leads to an infinite amount of date that will have to be stored and accessed. That is why I said there would probably not be a problem for now. However, in the future when trying to dig through a couple hundred million records I bet the system will slow down a bit.

.

Data is data, whether it's Wal_Mart inventory, firearm sales, or everybody in the world's email. And BTW, "a couple hundred million records" is not a lot. Google any word, "dog" for example. I did, and got "780,000,000 results (0.39 seconds)" For comparison, since 1998, there have been 156,577,260 applications processed by NICS. Storage and access are not a problem. Don't even bother to bring it up again. Granting the ability to actually do analysis is the problem, compliments of those members of Congress whose first allegiance is to those who have a vested interest in increasing firearm sales.

[O Really]

Oh look, the Bobsey Twins have kissed and made up.

Welcome to the gun thread, Homo.
Notice that in 72 pages, nobody has discussed "fags, queers" or anything related. Try to keep it that way, OK?

[homerfobe]

Welcome to the gun thread, Homo.
Notice that in 72 pages, nobody has discussed "fags, queers" or anything related. Try to keep it that way, OK?

You just did. None were involved, so why bring them up?

[O Really]

Welcome to the gun thread, Homo.
Notice that in 72 pages, nobody has discussed "fags, queers" or anything related. Try to keep it that way, OK?

You just did. None were involved, so why bring them up?

Because you hardly ever - if ever - participate in discussion of any topic without bringing in something about homosexuals. All's I'm saying is that I personally as well as probably most of the others in this thread would appreciate your discussing guns and gun legislation in this thread, neither of which has anything to do with homosexuality.

[Ombudsman]

Welcome to the gun thread, Homo.
Notice that in 72 pages, nobody has discussed "fags, queers" or anything related. Try to keep it that way, OK?

You just did. None were involved, so why bring them up?

LOL - What a weirdo.

[O Really]

Would you suppose there are more firearm sales in the US than cell phones? Or downloaded cell phone apps? Or how much revenue do apps generate? Want to know any of that and more? click here..
http://mobithinking.com/mobile-marketin ... bile-stats

Now try to find anything comparable about firearm sales.