Obamacare

[Ombudsman]

Then put it on the next ballet and let the public vote.

A healthcare ballet? Why didn't Tchaikovsky think of that?

[Ombudsman]

Here's the latest idiotic meme making the rounds in the wing nut blogosphere. Given Another's other cliche talking points, I figured I'd post it before he has the chance to embarrass himself further

[Roland Deschain]

More Unintended Consequences

We will always have healthcare and we will always somehow fight fires. If I understand your recent posts correctly you're saying doctors will make less and large communities protected by unpaid firefighters will at least have to insure them. How awful.

The Daily Mail?

It is obvious that vrede has ZERO understanding of VOLUNTEER fire department operations and the budgeting process. Most if not all of these volunteers work jobs which possible provide insurance or have their own...what then? Which government mandated policy trumps? Secondly just where to you think the money to pay for these policies is going to come from? The increased costs will be passed on to tax-payers in the tax funded districts...those departments not in tax funded districts will either have to start charging for services, offering service subscriptions (remember how that worked a few years ago in TN) ot holding A LOT of bake sales. Another total screw up in a law that was passed before it read.

[Ombudsman]

Relax Henny Penny. Fire stations aren't closing down until well after the death panels have been put in place. That may take at least six months.

[O Really]

"Volunteer" is seen differently by the IRS and the Department of Labor. In some instances, a "volunteer" can be considered an employee by the IRS. "Volunteers" sometimes get paid. This isn't new. If ACA ends up requiring some units to provide a health insurance plan, I'm sure they'll deal with it. If that requires an increase from funding sources, it's a worthwhile expense. Does anybody want their local department to be like the unit in Arizona that tried to weasel out of paying life insurance to the firefighters killed at Yarnell Hill by calling them "temporary"? Does anybody want to tell their local "volunteer" firefighters that "yeah, yeah, thanks for putting your life on the line for us, with little to no pay and at great sacrifice to your family, but we just don't like Obamacare and we're gonna play whatever game we have to to get out of providing health insurance for you." Sure, there are those who would say that. Scumbags.

[Roland Deschain]

It is obvious that Roland Deschain has ZERO common sense. VOLUNTEER firefighters are not going to be forced to have double coverage. Any adequate insurance satisfies the ACA and VOLUNTEER fire departments will no doubt encourage VOLUNTEER firefighters with coverage from other employers to retain it in order to save the department money. Honestly, do you ever think things through?

The money for the remaining uninsured VOLUNTEER firefighters will indeed have to come from taxpayers or subscribers who have been skating so far, just like all the thousands of departments that aren't VOLUNTEER, just like the taxpayer-paid insurance that covers you while you blog from your socialist computer while you're "working"?

I get that cons love skating, they sure cried crocodile tears for the TN homeowner that stopped paying his bill. Sorry, looks like the gravy train is over. Of course, it was not in a tax funded district because that's how cons are - even taxing themselves for firefighting is an insult to their selfish slacker dogma.

Only the cheapest of cheapskate homeowners would want VOLUNTEER firefighters that risk their health protecting or saving the community's homes to not be able to afford healthcare.

Problem is vrede that it is the DEPARTMENT that must buy the health care not the individual firefighter didn't you catch that? So taxpayers that are already paying 7, 8, 9 or 10 cents on the hundred in property tax, just to support departmental operations, are skating? This will only apply to departments with 50 or more "employees" so just how much of an increase do you think that will be? What was obamas promise about NOT raising taxes...he just lied again. All of those "thousands of departments that aren't volunteer" are only 13% of the total number in the United States....Eighty seven percent of America's fire coverage is from volunteer departments and it seems that you are perfectly OK with pricing, what could be a large portion of that, out of business.

[Roland Deschain]

"Volunteer" is seen differently by the IRS and the Department of Labor. In some instances, a "volunteer" can be considered an employee by the IRS. "Volunteers" sometimes get paid. This isn't new. If ACA ends up requiring some units to provide a health insurance plan, I'm sure they'll deal with it. If that requires an increase from funding sources, it's a worthwhile expense. Does anybody want their local department to be like the unit in Arizona that tried to weasel out of paying life insurance to the firefighters killed at Yarnell Hill by calling them "temporary"? Does anybody want to tell their local "volunteer" firefighters that "yeah, yeah, thanks for putting your life on the line for us, with little to no pay and at great sacrifice to your family, but we just don't like Obamacare and we're gonna play whatever game we have to to get out of providing health insurance for you." Sure, there are those who would say that. Scumbags.

There is a difference in death benefits and health insurance..didn't you know that? You could also flip your statement of "yeah, yeah, thanks for putting your life on the line for us, with little to no pay and at great sacrifice to your family, but we just don't like Obamacare and we're gonna play whatever game we have to to get out of providing health insurance for you." around just a bit. You have to remember that these are VOLUNTEER departments so what happens when these departments start having people apply/join just to get department provide health care. Be a shame for that department to have to tell it's citizens "yeah, yeah, thanks for paying the higher taxes for lesser service now but due to this federal requirement that we provide healthcare to our firefighters we are getting a lot of unmotivated untrained individuals as members. Sorry your house burned own and your kid was still inside?"

[Wneglia]

Providers at significant financial risk

[bannination]

Here's the latest idiotic meme making the rounds in the wing nut blogosphere. Given Another's other cliche talking points, I figured I'd post it before he has the chance to embarrass himself further

Math has never been their strong suit.

[Wneglia]

My Alma Mater excluded from Obamacare

[Roland Deschain]

Problem is vrede (sic) that it is the DEPARTMENT that must buy the health care not the individual firefighter didn't you catch that?

Problem is, Roland Deschain, that your sentence makes no sense. Of course I know that it is the DEPARTMENT that must buy the health care. However, if firefighters have adequate insurance through their employer or other means the DEPARTMENT won't have to cover them. The only firefighters that will get coverage are the ones that need it. Honestly, do you ever think things through?

So taxpayers that are already paying 7, 8, 9 or 10 cents on the hundred in property tax, just to support departmental operations, are skating?

Yes, if their life and health-risking firefighters are not insured.

They are insured for their activities while "on duty" or responding.

This will only apply to departments with 50 or more "employees" so just how much of an increase do you think that will be?

I would pay it. It would shame me no end to know that firefighters risking their life and health for my life, property and health were uninsured. Clearly, you'd rather that homeowners skate. Typical con.

See above

What was obamas (double sic) promise about NOT raising taxes...he just lied again.

As you've posted (did you forget already?), it could be done by subscription or the slackers can do without. You've just lied again, there is no fire department tax mandate in the ACA.

A vast number of departments operate in tax districts...just where do you think additional revenue is going to come from

All of those "thousands of departments that aren't volunteer" are only 13% of the total number in the United States....Eighty seven percent of America's fire coverage is from volunteer departments

Your numbers are wrong or misleading:
As of 2011, the United States had 1,100,000 (1.1M) firefighters [344,000 (31%) career firefighters and 756,000 (69%) volunteer firefighters]...

I did not say "firefighters"...I said FIRE DEPARTMENTS. Even some volunteer departments augment daytime response with one or two paid firefighters.

and it seems that you are perfectly OK with pricing, what could be a large portion of that, out of business.

As Ombudsman says, you're a Henny Penny. We will find a way to fight fires, all this means is that the scumbag slackers won't get it done by people without healthcare coverage.

Oh I'm sure the fires will still be fought, but at what cost to firefighter safety (older gear, equipment and apparatus) and at what cost to the taxpayer or subscriber

[bannination]

That giant wall of text matches your goat Vrede.

[Roland Deschain]

Problem is vrede (sic) that it is the DEPARTMENT that must buy the health care not the individual firefighter didn't you catch that?

Problem is, Roland Deschain, that your sentence makes no sense. Of course I know that it is the DEPARTMENT that must buy the health care. However, if firefighters have adequate insurance through their employer or other means the DEPARTMENT won't have to cover them. The only firefighters that will get coverage are the ones that need it. Honestly, do you ever think things through?

So taxpayers that are already paying 7, 8, 9 or 10 cents on the hundred in property tax, just to support departmental operations, are skating?

Yes, if their life and health-risking firefighters are not insured.

They are insured for their activities while "on duty" or responding.

Citation needed, but if you are correct I still don't find insuring those firefighters risking their life and health for my life, property and health to be onerous.

Hmmm...citation....over 30 year fire service experience including 3 as chief officer....or call any of the local volunteer departments and ask. Valley Hill, Blue Ridge, Mountain Home, Dana, Fletcher....you want numbers and chief's names?

This will only apply to departments with 50 or more "employees" so just how much of an increase do you think that will be?

I would pay it. It would shame me no end to know that firefighters risking their life and health for my life, property and health were uninsured. Clearly, you'd rather that homeowners skate. Typical con.

See above

See above.

Again, they are insured for thier duties

What was obamas (double sic) promise about NOT raising taxes...he just lied again.

As you've posted (did you forget already?), it could be done by subscription or the slackers can do without. You've just lied again, there is no fire department tax mandate in the ACA.

A vast number of departments operate in tax districts...just where do you think additional revenue is going to come from

You brought up subscription as a possibility. You did forget already, didn't you? Otherwise, they will do without, reduce costs elsewhere or the slackers will stop being so cheap.

Whichever, your claim that there's a fire department tax mandate in the ACA is a lie. Run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

please post my words where I claimed that ACA carried a tax mandate. I am merely pointing out that the increased costs to the departments will be passed along as a tax increas to the tax supported districts. Subscritpion is used in some parts of the country all ready, not very effectively BTW, and no I did not forget

All of those "thousands of departments that aren't volunteer" are only 13% of the total number in the United States....Eighty seven percent of America's fire coverage is from volunteer departments

Your numbers are wrong or misleading:
As of 2011, the United States had 1,100,000 (1.1M) firefighters [344,000 (31%) career firefighters and 756,000 (69%) volunteer firefighters]...

I did not say "firefighters"...I said FIRE DEPARTMENTS. Even some volunteer departments augment daytime response with one or two paid firefighters.

Did you miss "misleading"? The number of FIRE DEPARTMENTS is irrelevant since neither of us know how many have fewer than 50 workers and thus aren't affected. It's the number of firefighters affected that matters and that's still less than the 69% I cite since many are with FIRE DEPARTMENTS that have fewer than 50 workers and, as you stated, many already have qualifying insurance through their paid jobs.

The number of paid vs volunteer firefighters is irrelevant. There is ONE DEPARTMENT that has over 1% of the total number of firefighters in the country as employees..the fact is that 87% of the fire DEPARTMENTS in this country are volunteer fire protection. What happens to the areas served by them if the protection is removed?

and it seems that you are perfectly OK with pricing, what could be a large portion of that, out of business.

As Ombudsman says, you're a Henny Penny. We will find a way to fight fires, all this means is that the scumbag slackers won't get it done by people without healthcare coverage.

Oh I'm sure the fires will still be fought, but at what cost to firefighter safety (older gear, equipment and apparatus) and at what cost to the taxpayer or subscriber

The really funny thing here is that Roland Deschain posts from his socialist workplace on his government computer while being covered by taxpayer-financed health insurance and getting taxpayer-financed pay and other benefits yet begrudges basic healthcare coverage for those firefighters risking their life and health for his life, property and health because he's too much of a slacker to pay a little more in taxes.

The funnier thing is that vrede is shooting off his big mouht with out knowing that I have served as a volunteer firefighter. I have "been there, done that, and still do" I know full well what these guys and gals do and go through and that requiring a volunteer department to provide basic everyday medical insurance to it's members will be far worse on the citizenry served than as a benefit to those firefighters

[O Really]

You have to remember that these are VOLUNTEER departments so what happens when these departments start having people apply/join just to get department provide health care. Be a shame for that department to have to tell it's citizens "yeah, yeah, thanks for paying the higher taxes for lesser service now but due to this federal requirement that we provide healthcare to our firefighters we are getting a lot of unmotivated untrained individuals as members. Sorry your house burned own and your kid was still inside?"

I believe the fire departments are responsible for selection and training, are they not? It's not like somebody can just show up and climb in the truck and say "look at me, I'm a firefighter volunteer."

There is a difference in the conditions for which a death benefit is paid vs. a medical benefit. To get a payout from the death benefit you have to actually die. To get a payout from the medical benefit, you only have to be sick or injured. But both are employee benefit programs, and a person who is going to do the difficult and dangerous job of a firefighter deserves both of them.

[Roland Deschain]

You have to remember that these are VOLUNTEER departments so what happens when these departments start having people apply/join just to get department provide health care. Be a shame for that department to have to tell it's citizens "yeah, yeah, thanks for paying the higher taxes for lesser service now but due to this federal requirement that we provide healthcare to our firefighters we are getting a lot of unmotivated untrained individuals as members. Sorry your house burned own and your kid was still inside?"

I believe the fire departments are responsible for selection and training, are they not? It's not like somebody can just show up and climb in the truck and say "look at me, I'm a firefighter volunteer."

True. However, as a VOLUNTEER organization it is difficult to set prerequisite standards and still get volunteers. It is usually a two or three month process or "probationary membership" and a show of hands vote from the exisiting firefighters as to whether or not a person is accepted after that..they can " just show up and climb in the truck and say "look at me, I'm a firefighter volunteer."

There is a difference in the conditions for which a death benefit is paid vs. a medical benefit. To get a payout from the death benefit you have to actually die. To get a payout from the medical benefit, you only have to be sick or injured. But both are employee benefit programs, and a person who is going to do the difficult and dangerous job of a firefighter deserves both of them.

And for the actual duties accompanying being a volunteer firefighter they already get them both

[Roland Deschain]

Of course, this entire discussion is based on a tabloid Daily Mail article. Roland Deschain is that gullible.

Once again vrede, when faced with irrefutable fact or vast knowledge and experience, starts to attack the poster rather than attemtp to debate the subject. Typical

[Roland Deschain]

You have to remember that these are VOLUNTEER departments so what happens when these departments start having people apply/join just to get department provide health care. Be a shame for that department to have to tell it's citizens "yeah, yeah, thanks for paying the higher taxes for lesser service now but due to this federal requirement that we provide healthcare to our firefighters we are getting a lot of unmotivated untrained individuals as members. Sorry your house burned own and your kid was still inside?"

....It is usually a two or three month process or "probationary membership" and a show of hands vote from the exisiting firefighters as to whether or not a person is accepted...

No need to post, O Really, Roland Deschain does a great job arguing with himself.

When you learn how volunteer fire departments are organized and operate, or maybe serve on one for a couple of decades, come back and talk to me. Until, then you are now doing nothing but flapping your gums.

[Roland Deschain]

Since you ran away before - Why do you want unhealthy people as firefighters and how does that serve the citizenry?

Perhaps you need to look up the definition of the term "volunteer". In addition who said anything about wanting unhealthy people as firefighters...you are twisting again but that usually happens with you once you realize you are on the short end of the kowledge stick pertaining to a topic.

[O Really]

Well, I've never been a firefighter, volunteer or otherwise. But I've represented municipalities in Florida and negotiated contracts with their firefighter units. So maybe Florida's units don't work like those in NC. But down there, a "volunteer" definitely does not mean "show up." They are scheduled, like the regulars, there are limitations on what they do, and they have to meet performance and training standards. Point being, Roland, you devalue the worth of firefighters everywhere by thinking they aren't worth providing a very basic employee benefit to, despite their "volunteer" status. You see the available funds as limited and say, "let's don't spend it on the men who are doing the work." I say find the money. If it's taxes, fine.

[Roland Deschain]

Well, I've never been a firefighter, volunteer or otherwise. But I've represented municipalities in Florida and negotiated contracts with their firefighter units. So maybe Florida's units don't work like those in NC. But down there, a "volunteer" definitely does not mean "show up." They are scheduled, like the regulars, there are limitations on what they do, and they have to meet performance and training standards. Point being, Roland, you devalue the worth of firefighters everywhere by thinking they aren't worth providing a very basic employee benefit to, despite their "volunteer" status. You see the available funds as limited and say, "let's don't spend it on the men who are doing the work." I say find the money. If it's taxes, fine.

Yes, NC is far different from Florida. Again you have missed what I am saying...volunteer firefighters ARE PROVIDED INSURANCE COVERAGE by the departments they serve. It is just not everyday basic medical coverage. It is insurance that covers them while they are PERFORMING THE DUTIES ASSOCIATED WITH THAT DEPARTMENT. In other words when they are actually working (employeed) they are covered by the department, when they are sitting at the house watching Monday night football they are on their own coverage.