Obamacare

[Roland Deschain]

Since you ran away before - Why do you want unhealthy people as firefighters and how does that serve the citizenry?

Perhaps you need to look up the definition of the term "volunteer". In addition who said anything about wanting unhealthy people as firefighters...you are twisting again but that usually happens with you once you realize you are on the short end of the kowledge stick pertaining to a topic.

LOL! This whole discussion is about the legal definition of worker for insurance purposes. Pay attention!

People without healthcare are less healthy on average. Everyone but you knows that.

"short end of the kowledge (sic) stick" - Irony.

Just on this page your "kowledge" has included:

Your foolish fantasy that those with existing coverage will cost the departments.
Your love for slacker homeowners and businesses that don't think that firefighters risking their life and health for life, property and health merit health insurance.
Your challenging me to verify your claims then running away from giving me the info. necessary to do so.
Your lie about a fire department tax mandate in the ACA.
Your lie about your lie about a fire department tax mandate in the ACA.
Your contradicting yourself repeatedly over whether tax increases are the only option.
Your exaggeration over how many firefighters will be affected.
Your contradicting yourself over whether fires will still be fought.
Your contradicting yourself over whether incompetents can become volunteer firefighters.
Your confusion over O Really's mention of how they tried to screw dead firefighters.
Your choice to ignore so many inconvenient arguments and then whine like a little kid about my attitude.
Your desire to withhold from firefighters even limited benefits that you get for blogging here.
Your gullibility in swallowing whole anything claimed by the tabloid Daily Mail.
Your repeated self-congratulations without having demonstrated anything warranting them.
Your ignorance of the fact that coverage of workers is the central issue here. Your supposed experience with firefighting has little relevance.

As always turns out to be the case, the topic at hand makes little difference. The discussion becomes about Roland Deschain's ignorance, inconsistencies, contradictions, greedy con dogma, dishonesty and poor comprehension. I'm sure he has talents but it's beyond me why he chooses forums for a hobby.

Now, run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

More personal attack and defelection from the actual topic. Must suck to know that you are intellectually, and experience deficient in a topic. However, your tactic is now well known by all who have ever crossed keyboards with you. Now post again vrede, post again.

[Roland Deschain]

If they don't have "their own coverage" - Why do you want unhealthy people as firefighters and how does that serve the citizenry?[/color]

I can't help but notice you still have not answered my question from earlier....who decides who is healthy enough an who doesn't and how does that play into volunteerism?
Attack away vrede, attack away.

[Roland Deschain]

Poor Roland Deschain, runs away from each documented point then whines about my supposed deflection. What a child!

If they don't have "their own coverage" - Why do you want unhealthy people as firefighters and how does that serve the citizenry?

I can't help but notice you still have not answered my question from earlier....who decides who is healthy enough an who doesn't and how does that play into volunteerism?

You did not ask that question before, liar. I assume that volunteer departments have some minimal health standards but maybe they don't. Whichever, minimal health standards are far different from the well known long term health benefits of having access to healthcare. Which is it this time - your poor comprehension or you're just deflecting again?

That is true I had typed it in and then changed the post...it was in fact not asked prior. With that in mind it still stands.

Attack away vrede, attack away.

You make it so easy. Thanks.

...volunteer firefighters ARE PROVIDED INSURANCE COVERAGE by the departments they serve. It is just not everyday basic medical coverage. It is insurance that covers them while they are PERFORMING THE DUTIES ASSOCIATED WITH THAT DEPARTMENT.

That's not accurate, either. There are any number of chronic conditions that could be associated with firefighting but that are not necessarily associated with any particular event and would never be covered by stingy insurance companies. Like so many cons, Roland Deschain wants workers at the bottom of the system to subsidize miserly taxpayers. That's how the unthinking and dogmatic cons are, someone else must always bear the burden.

Unfortunately for vrede, over 30 years experience and the knowledge associated with that time, trump his opinions and the facts say that vrede's statement above is not only inaccurate but blatantly untrue. There are numerous cases of firefighters dying from heart attacks days after fires, or being diagnosed with various cancers and still being afforded line of duty benefits

[Ombudsman]

Unfortunately for vrede, over 30 years experience and the knowledge associated with that time, trump his opinions and the facts say that vrede's statement above is not only inaccurate but blatantly untrue. There are numerous cases of firefighters dying from heart attacks days after fires, or being diagnosed with various cancers and still being afforded line of duty benefits[/color]

Career fireman huh? Almost as revealing as the fact that Another was posting from Chile. Should we call you Mad Roland or Mad Nascar?

[Roland Deschain]

Unfortunately for vrede, over 30 years experience and the knowledge associated with that time, trump his opinions and the facts say that vrede's statement above is not only inaccurate but blatantly untrue. There are numerous cases of firefighters dying from heart attacks days after fires, or being diagnosed with various cancers and still being afforded line of duty benefits[/color]

Career fireman huh? Almost as revealing as the fact that Another was posting from Chile. Should we call you Mad Roland or Mad Nascar?

Not nearly as revealing if you would pay attention...I said over 30 years as a VOLUNTEER.....big difference between that and career.

[bannination]

Unfortunately for vrede, over 30 years experience and the knowledge associated with that time, trump his opinions and the facts say that vrede's statement above is not only inaccurate but blatantly untrue. There are numerous cases of firefighters dying from heart attacks days after fires, or being diagnosed with various cancers and still being afforded line of duty benefits[/color]

Career fireman huh? Almost as revealing as the fact that Another was posting from Chile. Should we call you Mad Roland or Mad Nascar?

Not nearly as revealing if you would pay attention...I said over 30 years as a VOLUNTEER.....big difference between that and career.

So Nascar was a firefighter for his occupation?
That's interesting... how do you know this?

[Roland Deschain]

So Nascar was a firefighter for his occupation?
That's interesting... how do you know this?

How do I know what? Your post makes no sense. I'm merely responding to yet another incorrect assumption by ohbuttboy. It seems that there are a couple of folks here who fancy themselves real Sherlock Holmes but never can solve the case.

[Mr.B]

Well....you can't sue the damgummit; so I wonder how everyone who got their identity stolen off the ACA website is going to fare....?
(opps! we forgot the security thingy!..... )

[Ombudsman]

So Nascar was a firefighter for his occupation?
That's interesting... how do you know this?

How do I know what? Your post makes no sense. I'm merely responding to yet another incorrect assumption by ohbuttboy. It seems that there are a couple of folks here who fancy themselves real Sherlock Holmes but never can solve the case.

Whatever you say Darren.

[O Really]

I've noticed that Roland seems to like to keep trimming down the focus of a discussion to one or a few very specific statements that he can defend based on his personal experience. NTTAWWT in particular, but it does slow the discussion down and lead to tangents. So - this thread started out addressing "Obamacare" and the immediate branch had to do with whether fire departments who used volunteers would have to count those volunteers as "employees" and thus may be required to provide eligibility for health insurance. Roland wants to talk about a type of workers' comp coverage. But whether the "volunteers" are considered "employees" is a matter of existing law and IRS ruling, not new. Most of those who are "volunteers" will not be considered "employees" and will not affect the department's obligation to offer health insurance to those who are "employees." But without regard to Obamacare, I contend that an organization that has employees, and particularly employees that risk their lives in their work (and yes, that includes not only the highly regarded firefighters, but also the lowly regarded bodega clerks) should provide access to a health insurance program for those employees.

[Roland Deschain]

Big of you to admit that your attack was stupid but what "stands"? I responded to your point and you're the one that's so pathetically deflecting - Why do you want unhealthy people as firefighters and how does that serve the citizenry? Run away, Roland Deschain, run away.

The question....who decides who is healthy and worthy to volunteer or unhealthy enough to be refused? Who makes that detemination?

[O Really]

Who decides? In Florida, for example, volunteers must "Complete a medical examination and Complete basic fire & EMS training (Firefighter Part I certificate, 206 hours)" The results of the exam and the ability to complete the training provides the decision. You're the NC firefighter, don't you know who decides here?

[Boatrocker]

Who decides? In Florida, for example, volunteers must "Complete a medical examination and Complete basic fire & EMS training (Firefighter Part I certificate, 206 hours)" The results of the exam and the ability to complete the training provides the decision. You're the NC firefighter, don't you know who decides here?

Well, in all fairness, the rules are often different in West Hicksville, USA. Many volunteer firefighters are still chosen simply because they're willing to do it.

[O Really]

Who decides? In Florida, for example, volunteers must "Complete a medical examination and Complete basic fire & EMS training (Firefighter Part I certificate, 206 hours)" The results of the exam and the ability to complete the training provides the decision. You're the NC firefighter, don't you know who decides here?

Well, in all fairness, the rules are often different in West Hicksville, USA. Many volunteer firefighters are still chosen simply because they're willing to do it.

About 25 years ago or such, one of the official tourism slogans in Florida was "the rules are different here." They no longer use that one - maybe it's available for NC.

[O Really]

"a show of hands vote from the exisiting firefighters as to whether or not a person is accepted"?? Seriously? What is this, a tree-house club? I must have mis-understood something. Roland - you really telling us that in the state of NC, "qualification" as a volunteer firefighter is based on a vote?

[Boatrocker]

"a show of hands vote from the exisiting firefighters as to whether or not a person is accepted"?? Seriously? What is this, a tree-house club? I must have mis-understood something. Roland - you really telling us that in the state of NC, "qualification" as a volunteer firefighter is based on a vote?

If some dude already has a flashy yellow stick-on light for his pick-em-up truck, he'd be a leg up on a guy who didn't.

[Roland Deschain]

As I told you and you quoted me telling you, I responded to your question:

...I assume that volunteer departments have some minimal health standards but maybe they don't. Whichever, minimal health standards are far different from the well known long term health benefits of having access to healthcare. Which is it this time - your poor comprehension or you're just deflecting again?...

You responded but did not answer. All you gave was your ASSUmption.

The Fletcher FD, one of the ones Roland Deschain claims to have worked for,

Please quote the statement where I claimed to have worked for Fletcher. I simply gave you a list of some of the larger local FD's off the top of my head. I made no claim as to having EVER been affiliated with ANY of them. However, a physical agility test is not a measure of overall health. So again, vrede, in a VOLUNTEER organization who makes the call as to who is healthy enough to serve? Is it set simply by passing an agility test? Tell us. You obviously have some idea.

As to your question.....I'm offering simply an opinion based in experience and that is....for the most part those who come out to volunteer as firefighters are healthy and feel they are able to do the tasks. So, your point falls flat without ever taking off....as usual.

[Roland Deschain]

Who decides? In Florida, for example, volunteers must "Complete a medical examination and Complete basic fire & EMS training (Firefighter Part I certificate, 206 hours)" The results of the exam and the ability to complete the training provides the decision. You're the NC firefighter, don't you know who decides here?

Are those the requirements for membership or for a different level of membership? There are no requirements like that in order to join a volunteer department in NC. Individual organizations may have a few extra requirements but nothing at the state level.

[O Really]

It's not a state law, but those are the standard requirements for most volunteers, according to the Florida Fire Chiefs Association, and are in line with the requirements of the units I'm familiar with personally. Remember that most fire departments in Florida are union, and they're not going to go out on a call with some yahoo who just thought it would be cool to ride the truck.

I guess it's possible some unit like the Yeehaw Junction Volunteer Fire Department that has no professional members might let in the guy who already has the yellow flasher.

[Wneglia]

Schadenfreude

and for the single payer crowd..