The Religion Thread

[rstrong]

If you could turn stupid into a fuel, Alabama already would have left the Solar System.

Doesn't Huntsville have the highest number of engineers per capita in the world?

(More interesting: Does anyone have a diagram of voting patterns comparing Huntsville to the rest of Alabama?)

[Boatrocker]

If you could turn stupid into a fuel, Alabama already would have left the Solar System.

Doesn't Huntsville have the highest number of engineers per capita in the world?

(More interesting: Does anyone have a diagram of voting patterns comparing Huntsville to the rest of Alabama?)

Typical red state (I was born and grew up there), with expanses of rural, non-industrialized towns that usually vote for whoever ain't a durn librul. Much of north AL is probably a little more left leaning than you might think, including Bham and all those little surrounding muni's that were born under the steel mill smoke. I haven't lived there since '75, so I don't know fershure.
But just south of Montgomery is the fall line, where it all flattens out and the countryside is 90% rural, with all that entails. It is strictly talibaptist teabagger territory. Militia nutjobs, redneck tools, all the usual suspects. I graduated HS down there. It's exactly what you'd expect.

[bannination]

[rstrong]

It's like celebrating Joan of Arc with a barbecue, or commemorative John the Baptist dinnerware.

Or George Washington with a snow globe.

Granted, I'd buy a General Custer pin cushion.

[O Really]

Or Lincoln's birthday promotion for free theatre tickets.
And instead of building a new WTC and memorial they could have just glorified the burned rubble.

[Mr.B]

"You (probably) classify me as an atheist, (though) I consider myself an agnostic."

Someone who doesn't believe there's a Heaven, but hopes there's no Hell?

[rstrong]

"You (probably) classify me as an atheist, (though) I consider myself an agnostic."

Someone who doesn't believe there's a Heaven, but hopes there's no Hell?

Someone who doesn't believe in either, given the lack of evidence or compelling argument for them. But whose mind is open to possibilities, should the religious ever be able to present something.

I don't consider myself atheist or agnostic. Especially when the religious desperately make silly claims of "Yes, but if you're atheist, then you believe ______!!!!"

I'm simply non-religious. There's no word for those who don't believe in invisible elephants, and there's no word needed for not believing in your mythology's invisible friend. But presented with evidence of gods - Carl Sagan's Contact (the book, not the movie) gave a good example of a godly power as opposed to very highly advanced technology - then I will believe in those gods without inconsistency.

[rstrong]

Excellent.

[Mr.B]

"You (probably) classify me as an atheist, (though) I consider myself an agnostic."

"Someone who doesn't believe there's a Heaven, but hopes there's no Hell?"

"Someone who doesn't believe in either, given the lack of evidence or compelling argument for them. But whose mind is open to possibilities, should the religious ever be able to present something."

You are aware that my reply was intended as a pun, (although a good pun) didn't you?

"I'm simply non-religious. There's no word for those who don't believe in invisible elephants, and there's no word needed for not believing....."

Invisible elephants...? K9nanny once said she was agnostic....guess she doesn't believe in invisible dogs!

I understand your point; I've never seen God either, but I have enough faith to believe He exists, and I've seen things first-hand in my life that I believe He had a hand in when all my efforts failed and prayer prevailed.

[rstrong]

I understand your point; I've never seen God either, but I have enough faith to believe He exists, and I've seen things first-hand in my life that I believe He had a hand in when all my efforts failed and prayer prevailed.

The same argument can be made with equal credibility for Allah, Zeus, Lord Vishnu and the rain god Bob.

And far more credibility for a good set of dice.

[Mr.B]

Your argument. I couldn't tell you myself, I've never sought the advice or direction of your aforementioned.

[rstrong]

Your argument. I couldn't tell you myself, I've never sought the advice or direction of your aforementioned.

You keep telling us that you do. You simply have a different name for your invisible friend.

Your argument, "I have enough faith to believe He exists, and I've seen things first-hand in my life that I believe He had a hand in when all my efforts failed and prayer prevailed" works equally for Allah, Zeus, Lord Vishnu, the tooth fairy, the rain god Bob and any child's invisible friend, as it does for your own mythology.

[O Really]

Actually, it works as well for my friend's Panther shirt, which he got in the first year they were in the NFL, and at the first game. He has enough faith to believe that if he wears that shirt and doesn't wash it, that the Panthers will win. He took a lot of credit for last season, and now has seen things first-hand in his life that he believes his relic dirty shirt had a hand in. Now, I doubt he's as serious in his beliefs as Mr.B seems to be, but the principle is identical.

[rstrong]

Exactly. Mr.B puts the case for his religion on par with the case for a lucky shirt or a lucky rabbit's foot.

Given his lack of concern for what his religion has to say or how the message has been rewritten over the years - frankly, his religious beliefs have no more depth than belief in a lucky shirt or rabbit's foot.

[JTA]

Your argument. I couldn't tell you myself, I've never sought the advice or direction of your aforementioned.

If it makes you happy, doesn't harm anyone else, and helps you get through the day with a positive attitude and helps give your life meaning and purpose then more power to you. You've found some stability that many people don't have nor will ever have. Sometimes the alternative (not necessarily though, of course) is feelings of despair and purposelessness, like you're floating around and counting down the time till your sentence is up. One of the things I find interesting and admirable about some of my Christian friends is their overall positive attitude toward many things that come at them in life, both good and bad. Even if I don't believe in the same things as them, and even if I knew for an absolute fact that there was no God or Gods or a higher purpose to life, and knew for a fact they were lying to themselves, they've still found an answer that gets them through the night and as far as I can tell, their answer harms no one and has an overall net positive contribution to others as well. I see nothing wrong or bad in their religious beliefs.

That being said, for everyone here:

Do you think life has a purpose, does your life have a purpose, and does thinking about things bigger than you bring you to despair or make you happy?

[Mr.B]

Thank you, JTA! You said it very aptly. I've never been one to be able to express myself in a way that really conveys my thought; especially in a forum. (that's why I don't dabble with the social media thingies) I'll have an idea of what to say in my mind, but when I start typing, my thought train jumps the track and I'll type something different.

I wasn't wearing a lucky t-shirt, hat, or rabbit's foot when my wife was in serious condition in the hospital and the doctor told me rather frankly that she may not survive. I honestly believe that the fervent prayers of my church family and myself brought her back...that was six years ago. Although she still has complications, I asked my "invisible friend" to just let us share together a few more years on this earth...He did, and I honestly believe He did.

As far as the other religions or political ideologies that rstrong mentioned, I have no clue to their beliefs or convictions, nor need to.

rstrong once mentioned his furor over not finding a drugstore open on Sunday so as to obtain medication for his daughter. I can't help but wonder this scenario:
Suppose his daughter lay dying and the doctor told him there was no hope....would he just say "Oh well" and go on, or would he try any means possible to save his daughter....including prayer? I believe that God would have answered his prayer, despite his unbelief if he had been sincere in his prayer, and repentant.

[bannination]

Your argument. I couldn't tell you myself, I've never sought the advice or direction of your aforementioned.

If it makes you happy, doesn't harm anyone else, and helps you get through the day with a positive attitude and helps give your life meaning and purpose then more power to you. You've found some stability that many people don't have nor will ever have. Sometimes the alternative (not necessarily though, of course) is feelings of despair and purposelessness, like you're floating around and counting down the time till your sentence is up. One of the things I find interesting and admirable about some of my Christian friends is their overall positive attitude toward many things that come at them in life, both good and bad. Even if I don't believe in the same things as them, and even if I knew for an absolute fact that there was no God or Gods or a higher purpose to life, and knew for a fact they were lying to themselves, they've still found an answer that gets them through the night and as far as I can tell, their answer harms no one and has an overall net positive contribution to others as well. I see nothing wrong or bad in their religious beliefs.

That being said, for everyone here:

Do you think life has a purpose, does your life have a purpose, and does thinking about things bigger than you bring you to despair or make you happy?

I totally agree with that. The only problems I have with it is when they try to force their beliefs on the rest of us through laws or what have you, usually with a very negative result.

Life's purpose is simply to live long enough to reproduce, in a very clinical definition. There's really not much more to the purpose of life from an outside observer. In reality, life doesn't have to have a purpose for me to enjoy it. There are amazing things we can all do to help to make each others lives better, and I think (organized) religion - a lot of times but not all - has the opposite goal. I think that knowing you have only one shot to get it right makes you a much much better person. You can't simply ask forgiveness every time you do something wrong, and you can't rely on an external force to help other people (or yourself), we have to help other people and ourselves.

*Admitting the bias that religion had a *extremely* negative effect on my life, from which I've probably still not recovered from and I've seen too many others in similar situations.

BTW, Mr. B - it's been proven that being prayed for in medical circumstances statistically leads to worse outcomes. It's theorized the patients believe they are in much worse condition than they actually are and that tends to affect the body.

[bannination]

rstrong once mentioned his furor over not finding a drugstore open on Sunday so as to obtain medication for his daughter. I can't help but wonder this scenario:
Suppose his daughter lay dying and the doctor told him there was no hope....would he just say "Oh well" and go on, or would he try any means possible to save his daughter....including prayer? I believe that God would have answered his prayer, despite his unbelief if he had been sincere in his prayer, and repentant.

Why would he even send his daughter to the hospital in the first place if he believed in God?

[neoplacebo]

I once had an unlucky rabbit's lucky foot but I lost it; had it several years back when I was a kid. So I guess that means it wasn't so lucky after all. I've had luck on and off since then but I always wonder if I still had that goddam unlucky rabbit's lucky foot if I'd have had luck on a continual and ever intensified level or not.

[JTA]

I wasn't wearing a lucky t-shirt, hat, or rabbit's foot when my wife was in serious condition in the hospital and the doctor told me rather frankly that she may not survive. I honestly believe that the fervent prayers of my church family and myself brought her back...that was six years ago. Although she still has complications, I asked my "invisible friend" to just let us share together a few more years on this earth...He did, and I honestly believe He did.

You hit a key point here. When I was a kid I was a little bit religious as I was raised sort of a Christian, but my family wasn't very religious and my parents didn't push anything on me. As a kid, in times of strife you can usually count on your parents for help, knowing they were always watching over you and had your back should things get rough. I remember as a kid also thinking that God or Jesus had my back and considered Jesus a true bro, a bro you could confide in when things were going south, and a bro who was your best friend and wouldn't judge you (mostly). Maybe that belief didn't line up with what's exactly in the bible, but as far as kid JTA was concerned Jesus was my bro; a real dude.

As an adult, and as an atheist, when things get rough I'm on my own. You cannot count on your parents any longer because they have their own problems and turns out they're not actually superhumans and are subject to the whims of the world just like you. You are now in control of your own destiny, but you come to realize that even that's not always true. You cannot control everything with absolute certainty. Fate has it's way and accidents and mishaps are unavoidable. You could lose your job tomorrow and be out on the street, succumb to a serious illness, have your dog get hit by a car or your hamster get sucked up and obliterated in the vacuum cleaner. Shit will happen, and shit sometimes happens often. This realization for some can lead to despair which some succumb to, whereas someone who believes in some form of purpose or a higher order may be relieved of such despair. Then sometime in your twenties you discover existentialism which just F's up your damn whole week and scrambles your brain and turns it into mashed potaters.