Corporal Punishment

[Mr.B]

"I don't remember what the first thing I learned was, but I feel sure it wasn't how to lie. It could have been how to steal, but I'm not sure. When my daughter was five, six, years old she would come and tell me and her mom if she had done something she knew she shouldn't do....confession, as it were. And nobody in our family is Catholic. I never understood that, other than I felt we had done a good job to date with our kid."

From that, I believe you have.

We weren't Catholic either; we weren't anything. We sure had no closet to hide in and confess our wrongs. If my Grandpa felt any of us were in the wrong, and no one came out, we all got whipped. If you did something and lied about it, and he knew it....rut-roh!

For the most part, it seems every home has a kid named Idaknow or Notme....."Who broke that vase?" Ida-know!.......Not-me!
"Did you do that"?......No! "Who did"?....Ida-know!

[O Really]

...and no one came out, we all got whipped...

I guess he's still getting whipped then, apparently

[Mr.B]

"...If my Grandpa felt any of us were in the wrong, and no one came out, we all got whipped..."

"Collective violent punishment. Does this explain your unshakeable support for the death penalty despite knowing that innocents will be killed?"

"I guess he's still getting whipped then, apparently."

Violent punishment? Hardly. We were taught 3 basics...you don't lie, cheat, or steal. Violators would be punished. Of course, today you can't discipline your children because you'll be arrested, fined, and thrown in jail; thanks to the very liberal bleeding hearts that cry "abuse" and make comments like "violence". It appears Vrede didn't get his butt striped any while growing up; probably "time-outs" and "go sit in the corner" was the gist of his punishment. No wonder he's such a butt-hole!
Discipline makes a much better person than coddling does.

[O Really]

Discipline makes a much better person than coddling does.

Euphemisms are so cool! Imagine being able to use the term "discipline" (meaning "to teach") to apply to an action that when taken toward anyone other than a defenseless child would be aggravated assault.

[Mr.B]

Discipline makes a much better person than coddling does.

Euphemisms are so cool! Imagine being able to use the term "discipline" (meaning "to teach") to apply to an action that when taken toward anyone other than a defenseless child would be aggravated assault.

You too? Time out for you; or go sit in a corner, whichever you want to do...... ....and please don't bother Mommy.

[O Really]

A lot of people say, "I got hit when I was a kid,and it didn't do me any harm." I say, "didn't do you any harm - turned you into a person who thinks it's OK to hit a child with a weapon, didn't it?"

You might find some items of interest here... http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=eff ... CB0QgQMwAA

[neoplacebo]

I can remember my mom whipping me with a thin flexible willow tree switch. She'd take hold of one of my hands, hold it up above my head, and commence to whomp on the back of my calves with the switch as I turned and whirled around in a circle attempting to avoid the blows. This happened more than a few times ( I was a pretty intrepid kid) but looking back on it, I don't think of it as abuse. It was because of something I did that I shouldn't have done. At the time, it sure made me wonder if doing whatever it was I did was really worth it or not. It was; I got away with more than I got caught with. And I don't think it caused me any harm, even though mom would probably be arrested for it today if someone reported it. I do admit that I have, on occasion, witnessed other people's kids doing shit that I think they should be punished for, but any sort of discipline these days is bad medicine it looks like. As for collective punishment, nobody's saying much about how Israel destroys the homes of the relatives of suspected or confirmed insurgents on a regular basis, or how public housing here will and does evict entire families for the crimes committed by one family member. It seems punishment is relative; depends on who is looking at it.

[neoplacebo]

Approve or disapprove, of course whipping is violent punishment. Too bad Grandpa didn't punish Mr.B for failing to learn English.

There was a paddle, I broke it.

Once again Mr.B fantasizes about my personal life, and fails. I'm cool with it, though. Mr.B once scolded me for involving his wife in the discussion and I've respected his wishes ever since. Now that parents are fair game, I pity Mrs.B for having to deal with a gay-obsessed husband all these years. Maybe I shouldn't, she has the right to partner with someone of questionable sexuality and I should be tolerant of her choices.

I support Mr. B and his wife in whatever endeavor they embark on or decide not to.

[Mr.B]

"I can remember my mom whipping me......"

"Approve or disapprove, of course whipping is violent punishment."

And you grew up with respect for your mom, others around you, and your personal morals...did you not? You didn't end up in a mental institution like the bleeding hearts claim you will because your mom whipped you did you?

"Violent punishment" is only violent when the parent inflicts injury. Red stripes on my legs and ass that soon go away is hardly "violent punishment".
I'm sorry your ass is so calloused from sitting in that chair in the corner; no wonder you're such a......never mind.

[Mr.B]

"Anecdotes don't refute the fact that kids that experience violence are more likely to become violent kids and adults. Statistics much?"
So that's why you turned out like you did? Confusing anecdotes with truth is typical bleeding-heart liberal mush. Confused much?

"Approve or disapprove, of course red stripes on your legs and ass is violent punishment and "injury".
"Approve or disapprove, of course whipping is violent punishment."
So tell us Mr. Mom-of-the Year, what is the best form of punishment? (I can't wait for this one!)

"Too bad Grandpa didn't punish Mr.B for failing to learn English...Or being too wussy to man-up when his goofy definitions are debunked."
I'm doing fine with my English; sorry I don't speak in accusatory terms like you, nor am I so condescending in my nature.

"Not counting any S&M games, do you nonviolently whip your wife (or she you)?"
My wife and I aren't in that kinky crap that you so vehemently defend and howl "tolerance and equality"; if we were, it would be none of your business.

[Mr.B]

"Here's "truth":"

The case against spanking
Physical discipline is slowly declining as some studies reveal lasting harms for children.

That has got to be the biggest mess of liberal hog-wash I've ever read.

It's very evident that discipline is declining; physical or otherwise
The most "lasting harm" a child gets is from non-discipline; just look at the number of rising cases involving kids committing violent crimes; (and you can't deny they're not on the rise.) Lack of discipline teaches no respect for others, that just because you get mad at someone, that's no reason to kill them. Lack of discipline is when you hear people at the mall talking foul four-letter words, not caring who hears them. Lack of discipline is, when people who want their way, had just as soon cuss you out as to be reasoned with, such as the return desk at stores.

Home discipline (and used to be school discipline) teaches respect; not only for parents, but for fellow humans....not only in action but in speech.
If I lied, stole, or cheated, I could expect a whipping if I got caught....and believe it or not, if I didn't get caught, that discipline training gave me a conscience over my actions.

If I had called my elders by their first name, or called them 'Dude', 'you guys', etc., or even failed to hold a door open for someone, I would have been verbally disciplined. The Golden Rule "Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You" is probably never taught anymore, judging by the attitudes you see today.
(nowadays it's more like "do unto others before they do unto you")

Ask a teenager a question...."huh"? "whut"? "say whut"? It's been awhile since I've heard Ma'am or Sir, unless it was in a sarcastic manner.

I could ramble on over this, but the liberal attitudes on this subject are already in place. It's evident; all you have to do is open your eyes and look around.

[O Really]

Maybe you're right about discipline. For sake of discussion, let's say you are. Now substitute "beating" into the paragraph and see how it reads.

[O Really]

I thought the topic deserved it's own thread. Here's an article to consider... http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2201 ... picks=true

Excerpt: Four-year-old brains are developing rapidly, which makes that period of life so wonderful yet so dangerous. A preschooler's cognitive development can be slowed. The child can acquire aggressive impulses. The bond between child and caregiver can be damaged. A preschooler can develop depression, anxiety or even post-traumatic stress disorder.

There is one major, common, scientifically verified cause of all of those problems: corporal punishment, from a spank to the buttocks to a "whoopin'" with a blunt object.

BTW, "Bleacher Report" is a sports site, with little if any political orientation.

[O Really]

I just noticed that a lot of the "spanking" defenders use the same argument that they reject roundly for the molesters. "I was raped and sexually abused as a child..."

[O Really]

For example, we don't know whether Republicans, southerners and especially born-again Christians are more prone to child abuse or whether the children of Republicans, southerners and especially born-again Christians are more likely to be disobedient.

We may not know absolutely, but we do know that no matter how disobedient they are, there are alternatives to assaulting them. From those alternatives, available to everyone, the re-born Southern Republican Christians choose domestic abuse more than anybody else.

[Mr.B]

Re: http://blueridgedebate.com/viewtopic.ph ... start=1120

Kids that are exposed to violence, including corporal punishment, are more likely to grow up to be violent, as all relevant studies have demonstrated. Once again, Mr.B substitutes inaccurate dogma for science.

No.....not "all relevant studies" are correct. There is a vast difference in violence, corporal punishment, and abuse...unless of course, you are a liberal bleeding heart. "Science" will tell you anything you want to hear; the world is full of experts and ain't no two them got the same opinion.
How many of these "scientific experts" go into homes every day and see the different living environments? What do they base these "relevant studies" on and where do they get their "facts"? Kids who come from balanced homes, who are taught right from wrong, who are taught manners, and those who got disciplined at home fare far better in society than those who are left to their own devices.

Once again, Vrede substitutes fantasy for reality.

Let me give you an example of a "relevant scientific study". There was a news story on WLOS a few years back concerning the City of Asheville bemoaning all the cigarette butts that were littering the city streets. A woman who was some kind of someone of utmost importance from UNCA-A was being interviewed by the reporter and said that the city needed to get on the cigarette butt problem right away, because of the harm to wildlife. She went on to say that birds die from eating the butts and fish die from eating the butts when the butts are washed down the street drains where they empty out into the creeks and streams.....what a maroon!

Firstly, birds won't even pick one up. Fish won't even suck one into it's mouth, which means birds and fish have more sense than what her college degree got her.

The point in this is, a "relevant scientific study" is nothing more than something that someone can get someone else to believe and get paid for saying it. You see all these opinion poll results... how many people are there in the US and how many of them were polled?

[O Really]

All well and good, Mr.B - now would you like to address why a specific action that would be illegal in any other context is OK (and even beneficial) when done to a kid? Why is hitting a kid "educational" and hitting another adult is assault? Why does a parent have the right to "discipline" her kid by hitting the kid with a weapon such as a belt, but gets charged with neglect for leaving the kid alone while she goes to the store? What lesson does the kid learn that hitting someone to make them do what you want is a good thing? Or hitting them because they didn't do what you want? Why is it ok to "discipline" a kid by hitting the kid with a weapon, but not ok to "discipline" the kid by chaining him/her to their bed? Why is the "spanking" held out as a special, not-subject-to-normal-rules action?

[billy.pilgrim]

hey bb, what about making the kids run wind sprints

[Mr.B]

Scientists know how to adjust for other factors.
Like how to the public with "statistics".

It's a basic of science, which is something you should have learned by middle school.
I did. I think I was in the fifth grade when I discovered that.

The effects of corporal punishment have been well studied.
Yeah, you can tell that by talking to the average teenager on the street, at the mall, etc.

There are outliers and surprises, but the validity of statistical sampling is unassailable.
Good, informative article. Where does it say that birds and fish eat cigarette butts?

Once again, Mr.B substitutes fantasy for inconvenient reality.
Once again Vrede didn't prove one thing to be actual fact; only conjecture.

[neoplacebo]

Save the fetuses, then beat the crap out of them.

That's what happened to me. I had my ass paddled at school a few times and even before, when I was a child, my mom would swat me with a willow switch on the back of my legs. I never thought I deserved any of that stuff, and none of it really made me change my ways. Corporal punishment was an abject failure in my particular case.