Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

[Seth Milner]

Still legal, of course, just as flying the swastika is legal as a form of protected speech, but not something that will continue to be acceptable.

In whose mind? That's what I'm trying to say O Really; what is and isn't acceptable is in the mind of the individual until it's illegal, then it's unacceptable. Many detest smoking, (I do), open vulgarity in places like Walmart, (I do) gay pride parades where the participants are barely dressed, (I do) pets in shopping carts in stores, (I do) just to name a few.

There's always griping and belittling, even in these boards, about Christians wishing to impose their will, and Biblical beliefs on others; and non-Christians telling Christians that their beliefs are hogwash and they really should reconsider their "faith". Don't you really think that people screaming about some silly old flag is an attempt to impose their will, beliefs, and special interests on others?

This 'heritage' cry means a lot to some, but being from Idaho, it doesn't mean anything to me; but I respect their heritage for whatever it's worth.

[Seth Milner]

I will say this though, my first thought when seeing someone flying the confederate flag on a pickup truck is that they're most likely white trash.

I saw your guy yesterday, no lie. Big ol' red Ford F250 with a bigger ol' flag mounted in the bed on Spartnburg Hwy. I felt the pride.

So what should distinguish them from the non-trash whites? Aren't you being a bit judgmental? Or you don't have second thoughts?

Many view lower-income people as dope-smoking, cousin-screwing, incestuous "white trash". (rednecks?) Let me tell you that you'd be surprised at what white trash really is. The attributes I've described can be found in all walks of life; that is to say, even the very wealthy in their fine automobiles, flashy clothes, jewelry and mansions can be just as low down, dope-smoking, and nasty as any backwoods uneducated country boy.

Flying a rebel flag on his truck? Give me a break! What if it had been Old Glory?

[JTA]

First they came for the bud light, and I did not speak out—
Because I do not drink bud light.

Then they came for the truck balls, and I did not speak out—
Because I do not drive a pickup truck.

Then they came for the confederate flags, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a confederate flag.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[Seth Milner]

First they came for the bud light, and I did not speak out—
Because I do not drink bud light.

Then they came for the truck balls, and I did not speak out—
Because I do not drive a pickup truck.

Then they came for the confederate flags, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a confederate flag.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

:-0?>

[JTA]

I will say this though, my first thought when seeing someone flying the confederate flag on a pickup truck is that they're most likely white trash.

I saw your guy yesterday, no lie. Big ol' red Ford F250 with a bigger ol' flag mounted in the bed on Spartnburg Hwy. I felt the pride.

So what should distinguish them from the non-trash whites? Aren't you being a bit judgmental? Or you don't have second thoughts?

Many view lower-income people as dope-smoking, cousin-screwing, incestuous "white trash". (rednecks?) Let me tell you that you'd be surprised at what white trash really is. The attributes I've described can be found in all walks of life; that is to say, even the very wealthy in their fine automobiles, flashy clothes, jewelry and mansions can be just as low down, dope-smoking, and nasty as any backwoods uneducated country boy.

Flying a rebel flag on his truck? Give me a break! What if it had been Old Glory?

Alright man you know what, fair enough. You're absolutely right. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover.

Lemme rephrase what i said above. White trash types are probably more likely to fly the confederate flag than say a firmly middle class lawyer, doctor, or rocket scientist. I prefer the company of people on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum personally because they're less pompous and less full of themselves, at least on my experience.

Let's be honest though, most people do judge initially based off appearances. If I roll up to a job interview at a fortune 500 company wearing sweatpants and sporting a confederate flag or a don't tread on me flag or even a big American flag, I'd be less likely to get the job than a well dressed person with no insignia on his or her vehicle. I give people the benefit of the doubt most the time, but my initially reaction will probably be "that guy is more than likely a douchebag because he wants to advertise himself and what he thinks like a billboard instead of just living it". I see this guy driving around with a bunch of stuff on his truck about how he was an officer or something in the military. Nothing wrong with that, but the guy obviously has no identity and needs to display it like a billboard and makes sure everyone knows exactly what he was. It's just rather lame to me, and frankly a little sad because the guys identity and self image is obviously rather one dimensional.

[O Really]

Alright man you know what, fair enough. You're absolutely right. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover.

.

Seriously? Do you have any idea how much book publishers spend to get covers people will judge the book (favorably) by?
And don't people spend a lot of money, time and effort to get themselves a certain "look" they want to portray publicly? Why shouldn't a person be "judged" by the costume and the act they show us?

But to Seth's point, not everybody poor and white is "trash" and not everybody who is "trash" is poor and white. But stereotypes are most often earned, and those who hold up the stereotype really do exist. And a lot of them are flying the battle flag of Northern Virginia as part of their costume.

[JTA]

Alright man you know what, fair enough. You're absolutely right. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover.

.

Seriously? Do you have any idea how much book publishers spend to get covers people will judge the book (favorably) by?
And don't people spend a lot of money, time and effort to get themselves a certain "look" they want to portray publicly? Why shouldn't a person be "judged" by the costume and the act they show us?

But to Seth's point, not everybody poor and white is "trash" and not everybody who is "trash" is poor and white. But stereotypes are most often earned, and those who hold up the stereotype really do exist. And a lot of them are flying the battle flag of Northern Virginia as part of their costume.

As I said a few sentences down:

Let's be honest though, most people do judge initially based off appearances.

But seriously, You shouldn't write someone off completely if they're not well dressed or dressed differently. Judge them initially, yes, that sort of happens automatically I suppose, but write them off completely? No. Most metal-head types end up being the kindest people you'd ever meet, while your typical dressed down Sunday church going crowd can be the most judgement spiteful assholes in existence.

[O Really]

No, you shouldn't stick to a first impression if there's more you can get. But neither should you assume that everyone is different from the face they show the public. I may have told this story before, but way back in the day, the wife (Mrs. O Really v.1) and I decided to take a road trip from Philly to Mexico and take in a lot of the country on the way. Part of that trip involved a N/S ride through Alabama on I-85/65. We were not far out of Montgomery headed for Mobile and we got a little puff of smoky vapor out of the a/c and no cool air. We got to Mobile and the next morning I set off looking for somebody to work on the a/c. Found a shop close by and the guy - by any definition a hard-core redneck - started to look into the problem. So here's what I'm thinking: "yankee" couple with somewhat high maintenance wife driving a BMW with PA plates has air conditioning problems in Alabama in August. Shit, I might as well just give him the car and call it even. So after a while, he said the problem was the thermostat. The unit wasn't turning itself off and froze up. I asked was there a BMW dealer in town. He said, yeah, but it's the same part as a VW and half the price. So he set off to find parts. Came back, couldn't get the real part from BMW or VW, but said he could put in a switch. I could run the a/c and when it started to ice up, turn it off, then turn it back on. A manual thermostat - that would get me back home. So how much? "Well, I didn't really fix it, so I'll just charge you for the switch." I gave him, I think, $50 anyway (that was more then than now) and thanked him profusely. First impression? True, but still not a real picture of the person - an honest, caring, and helpful guy.

[JTA]

[Mr.B]

"Alright man you know what, fair enough. You're absolutely right. You shouldn't judge a book by its cover."

"Seriously? Do you have any idea how much book publishers spend to get covers people will judge the book (favorably) by?
And don't people spend a lot of money, time and effort to get themselves a certain "look" they want to portray publicly? Why shouldn't a person be "judged" by the costume and the act they show us?"
Donald Trump?

"But to Seth's point, not everybody poor and white is "trash" and not everybody who is "trash" is poor and white. But stereotypes are most often earned, and those who hold up the stereotype really do exist. And a lot of them are flying the battle flag of Northern Virginia as part of their costume."
And a lot of them are middle-class to wealthy who demand the legalization of drugs so "crime rates will decrease".

[O Really]

Still legal, of course, just as flying the swastika is legal as a form of protected speech, but not something that will continue to be acceptable.

In whose mind? That's what I'm trying to say O Really; what is and isn't acceptable is in the mind of the individual until it's illegal, then it's unacceptable. Many detest smoking, (I do), ....

What's acceptable may be in the mind of the individual, but legality isn't the only issue. It's also what's acceptable in the society as a whole. Part of the difference in civilization and anarchy is a common understanding of norms. You mentioned smoking. Back in the 60's or so, about half the adult population smoked - and "adult" started around age 16. Well, smoking is still legal, but is generally socially unacceptable. Law or no, places started outlawing smoking in their establishments. Smokers were relegated to huddling outside in a far corner of the parking lot, in their own stinky cars and in their own stinky homes. Force of society, not necessarily just force of law. In that case, the force of law followed the force of society and public opinion.

Look at another example. Could a song be made now with the line, "give me one more for my Baby, and one more for the road." Probably not, because taking that "one for the road" has long been illegal, but what made the difference is that it has become socially unacceptable. So if flying the battle flag of Northern Virginia has been socially acceptable as a "good ol' boy celebrating his heritage" and becomes socially unacceptable because it's seen as celebrating a "heritage" of slavery, segregation, treason, then I don't see that as a bad thing.

[Vrede too]

... Let me ask you, how does that flag being there affect your everyday way of life? ...

Symbols matter, as anyone that's been in any way involved with media should know. The flag coming down makes me happy knowing that so many racists are throwing a fit over it.

You never responded to this:

Even if there were no other reason, tens of millions of the descendants of slaves, also taxpayers, are deeply hurt and offended by the slaver flag. One would think South Carolinians with even a shred of basic human decency, compassion and manners would find that sufficient cause to say, "Ah, it doesn't have to fly at the Capitol, there are plenty of private options to display it." I guess not.

[Vrede too]

WLOS has even reported that "some" (un-named) Black leaders has suggested the Vance Monument be torn down....

Could be, but I've heard far more proposing a monument to black history in Pack Square as a way of providing some balance. As O Really says, there are far worse people to have a monument honoring than Zebulon Baird Vance.

[Vrede too]

... Don't you really think that people screaming about some silly old flag is an attempt to impose their will, beliefs, and special interests on others? ...

The debate is over the government of ALL the people endorsing the slaver flag. I'm fine with "white trash" declaring their trashiness.

[Vrede too]

First they came for the bud light, and I did not speak out—
Because I do not drink bud light.

Then they came for the truck balls, and I did not speak out—
Because I do not drive a pickup truck.

Then they came for the confederate flags, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a confederate flag.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

:-0?>

First they came ...

[O Really]

I understand Seth's point of view regarding "how does this affect you." I remind myself of that every day when I read about the loony Republican NC legislature doing something else stupid. No, I'm not going to have an abortion. No, I don't have kids in public schools. No, I don't need to take drivers' education and probably won't need to apply for unemployment compensation or SNAP. I probably won't ever be eligible for Medicaid, and won't need to use Obamacare for health insurance. I'm not going to take courses at A-B Tech, and I'm probably not going to change my own self- and home defense habits whether or not more loons have easier access to gun permits to carry in more places. But just because there's no direct impact on me doesn't seem to relieve me of some societal responsibility to support those things that are good for society and oppose those things that are not.

[Vrede too]

Ken Burns: Confederate flag isn't about heritage. It's about resistance to civil rights.

[GoCubsGo]

:arrow:

Ken Burns: Confederate flag isn't about heritage. It's about resistance to civil rights.

"I think what happens is that we build up over time the sense of an excuse about why it came," Burns said. "If you read … South Carolina's articles of secession in November — after [Abraham] Lincoln's election of 1860 — they don't mention states' rights, they don't mention nullification. They mention slavery over and over again."

BingBingBingBingBing


Not to mention the Confederate Constitution......

Article I Section 9(1)
The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country, other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

Article I Section 9(4)
No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

"Southern Heritage" needs to find a new symbol, I like Jon Stewart's idea of a flaming pig......mmmmmm BBQ.

[Seth Milner]

... Let me ask you, how does that flag being there affect your everyday way of life? ...

Symbols matter, as anyone that's been in any way involved with media should know. The flag coming down makes me happy knowing that so many racists are throwing a fit over it.
The flag coming down makes you happy, because, in your opinion, it's a symbol of slavery and oppression, and anyone who disagrees with you are racist minded. Is that not imposing your will and beliefs on others; that is, you believe everyone should believe as you do?

You never responded to this:

Even if there were no other reason, tens of millions of the descendants of slaves, also taxpayers, are deeply hurt and offended by the slaver flag. One would think South Carolinians with even a shred of basic human decency, compassion and manners would find that sufficient cause to say, "Ah, it doesn't have to fly at the Capitol, there are plenty of private options to display it." I guess not.
I didn't respond because I'm not a native South Carolinian and secondly, the rebel, or Confederate, flag has never been a thorn in my side as it has liberal-minded Southerners. Correct, it doesn't have to fly at the Capitol, but it has been there a few years and no Black person, to my knowledge, has been forced into slavery, forced to the back of the bus, or been lynched because of it being there. My point is that some half-baked kid that worshipped racism and carried a rebel flag, killed 9 Black folks in their place of worship and suddenly the mad rush is on to snatch or yank down any thing that resembles a rebel flag.

If the flag is taken down and it's image stashed away in a closet; fine. If it stays, fine. My knee has yet to start jerking, my undies are still clean, and I'm not foaming at the mouth.

[Seth Milner]

WLOS has even reported that "some" (un-named) Black leaders has suggested the Vance Monument be torn down....

Could be, but I've heard far more proposing a monument to black history in Pack Square as a way of providing some balance. As O Really says, there are far worse people to have a monument honoring than Zebulon Baird Vance.

Vrede too is quoting Mr.B through my quote. C'mon Vrede too, give it up already.

... Don't you really think that people screaming about some silly old flag is an attempt to impose their will, beliefs, and special interests on others? ...

The debate is over the government of ALL the people endorsing the slaver flag. I'm fine with "white trash" declaring their trashiness.

You speak with forked tongue. You speak of tolerance and equality, yet those who differ in their opinions of the rebel flag are white trash to you. I saw some Black folks on TV being interviewed as to their opinion on the flag issue, and it was said by a couple of those people that they thought the whole affair was silly. Does that make them Black trash?

This government endorsing the slaver flag is about as silly as what southern liberals scream about the 10 Commandments being posted in a city/county owned building. Over half the crap in my house that I own has a Made in China label on it, that doesn't mean I endorse our manufacturing jobs in the U.S.be phased out because we can get it cheaper from China.