The Religion Thread

[Seth Milner]

You're the one that's got them implanted up your ass. They're all you have to insult someone with.

[O Really]

So, Seth, here's a (real) question for you. At General Hospital, Anytown, USA, there is a highly educated and talented surgeon. This surgeon, top of his class in med school and considered a specialty leader also happens to be a Wiccan. He makes his pre-surgery visit with his patient, and in the course of discussing the procedure, the risks, etc., he brings out a small amulet and asks the patient if it would be OK if he conducted a ritual of magic to help him perform a successful surgery and bring the patient safely through the procedure with a fast recovery. Question: is this appropriate, and do you think anybody would object or that management would ask him not to do it?

[Vrede too]

Or the surgeon's model looked something like -



Does your question mean that he ducked:

Apparently, Seth Milner thinks it would be peachy for non-private practice MDs to ask all of their patients to pray to Allah, Trump or the Flying Spaghetti Monter, too, and doesn't think it would reflect poorly on the hospital as a whole . . . or he's a bigot and it's only okay if Christian MDs do it.

[O Really]

I don't know if he ducked or not, but he does seem to be one of the many who choose not to grasp the concept of geese and ganders. Because 70-something percent of Americans say they are Christian, that group just assumes that odds are they can bring someone in to their rituals without challenge. And a lot of times they can - and do. But actually the situation with the doctor is no different from any other employer who has an employee who proselytizes the customers. Except of course most employees aren't taking the customers' lives into their hands.

[Vrede too]

... But actually the situation with the doctor is no different from any other employer who has an employee who proselytizes the customers.

The outcome may be affected by the MDs working for a contracted company. We'll see what the hospital and/or the contracted company do if the MD is adamant.

Except of course most employees aren't taking the customers' lives into their hands.

The power relationship here makes it even worse than other such situations, not that Seth Milner gets it.

[Seth Milner]

So, Seth, here's a (real) question for you. At General Hospital, Anytown, USA, there is a highly educated and talented surgeon. This surgeon, top of his class in med school and considered a specialty leader also happens to be a Wiccan. He makes his pre-surgery visit with his patient, and in the course of discussing the procedure, the risks, etc., he brings out a small amulet and asks the patient if it would be OK if he conducted a ritual of magic to help him perform a successful surgery and bring the patient safely through the procedure with a fast recovery. Question: is this appropriate, and do you think anybody would object or that management would ask him not to do it?

Only if he worked in a hospital owned by a religious denomination. You did say "and asks the patient"; I'm assuming the patient can say yes or no. Either way, prayer or black magic carries no guarantees, so no big deal.

[Seth Milner]

I don't know if he ducked or not, but he does seem to be one of the many who choose not to grasp the concept of geese and ganders. Because 70-something percent of Americans say they are Christian, that group just assumes that odds are they can bring someone in to their rituals without challenge. And a lot of times they can - and do. But actually the situation with the doctor is no different from any other employer who has an employee who proselytizes the customers. Except of course most employees aren't taking the customers' lives into their hands.

If the one praying or performing rituals is asking for donations; then there's a problem. Again, like the drugs ads say, just say no.

[O Really]

Only if he worked in a hospital owned by a religious denomination. You did say "and asks the patient"; I'm assuming the patient can say yes or no. Either way, prayer or black magic carries no guarantees, so no big deal.

Your "what-everr" attitude may be admirable, but we're not really talking about your (or my) personal reaction. If you think prayer or black magic is no big deal, it's easy to go along to get along. But if you are a real believer in prayer (or magic), you take such things seriously and would be offended by a person elbowing in on your beliefs. I garon-tee hospital management would hear about it big time if a staffer asked to do a Wiccan ceremony on a practicing Baptist. So why would an institution risk unnecessary angst by allowing religious infringement in the workplace?

[Vrede too]

Apparently, Seth Milner thinks it would be peachy for non-private practice MDs to ask all of their patients to pray to Allah, Trump, (Wiccan, Voodoo) or the Flying Spaghetti Monter, too, and doesn't think it would reflect poorly on the hospital as a whole ...

... The power relationship here makes it even worse than other such situations, not that Seth Milner gets it.

Points proved.

[Seth Milner]

[Seth Milner]

Apparently, Seth Milner thinks it would be peachy for non-private practice MDs to ask all of their patients to pray to Allah, Trump (Wiccan, Voodoo) or the Flying Spaghetti Monter, too, and doesn't think it would reflect poorly on the hospital as a whole ...

... The power relationship here makes it even worse than other such situations, not that Seth Milner gets it.

Points proved.

Your childish way of commenting on my posts is hilarious! Why don't you put your big boy panties back on and join the rest of the grown-ups?
Point proven.

Your "what-everr" attitude.....

Do you really think that a Wiccan, knowing his/her beliefs are in the majority, is going to jump right in someone's face and start chanting some mumbo-jumbo without asking permission? Do you really think some Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever else is left out there, is going to get in someone's face and start praying, wailing, or whatever they do, without asking first? Sure, taking advantage of someone would be frowned upon, but most hospital management is tolerant when it comes to ministering to one's religious beliefs. It's just the offended assholes who bitch and complain.

[O Really]

Hospitals have always been happy to call your minister - or a minister of your preferred variety, and many have chapels or quiet spaces for families to pray or whatever they choose to do. But here's a real-life example. I used to go to a family practice/internist guy chosen largely because his office was in my building. He seemed satisfactorily competent and was a nice fellow. But he kept religious stuff all over the office - pictures, Biblical quotes, even Bibles in the waiting room, and was always saying what he prayed for, or would pray for, or that others should pray for, along with a large dose of "Lord willings" "thank the Lord," etc. It didn't bother me particularly, but I'm pretty sure if I had been of some particular religion other than Christian, I'd have felt pretty uncomfortable. So even though he's affiliated with a hospital, he's got his own practice and can do what he wants. If he wants to chase off the 25% of the population who aren't Christian or another group that just finds him a bit oppressive, fine - he's probably got enough patients anyway. But in a hospital or group practice setting, why would management let him do that?

[neoplacebo]

Since I've come back to TN I've been thinking that maybe I will join up, or at least attend services at one of those snake handling churches. I've read in the past that those are not uncommon in these parts. Just the idea of "taking up serpents" has an inexplicable allure for me. See you Sunday.

[O Really]

Since I've come back to TN I've been thinking that maybe I will join up, or at least attend services at one of those snake handling churches. I've read in the past that those are not uncommon in these parts. Just the idea of "taking up serpents" has an inexplicable allure for me. See you Sunday.

There are, indeed. A couple of years ago Lady O Really and I were over there at, I think, Warrior Path state park and somebody in one of the churches that was close by got bit. No faith, I guess.

[rstrong]

Since I've come back to TN I've been thinking that maybe I will join up, or at least attend services at one of those snake handling churches. I've read in the past that those are not uncommon in these parts. Just the idea of "taking up serpents" has an inexplicable allure for me. See you Sunday.

...but possibly not the following Sunday.

[Vrede too]

Hospitals have always been happy to call your minister - or a minister of your preferred variety, and many have chapels or quiet spaces for families to pray or whatever they choose to do....

Plus, as I posted originally many, many healthcare workers will pray with a patient and/or family if they request it and I'm fine with that. I've even stood quietly with my eyes closed and head bowed a few times.

Maybe Seth Milner would be accepting of it if he got pulled over by a cop and not see it as inappropriate, abusive or intimidating if the cop said: "You broke the law, sir. Before we move on to discuss how and the penalties, do you mind if we (pray to Jesus, Allah, Trump or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) or (do this Wiccan or Voodoo ceremony)?"

Or, more likely based on his history here, Seth Milner is not so incredibly slow as to not see the problem with a person in power imposing his religion upon a captive and/or needy audience. Rather, he wanted to whine at me, stuck his foot in his obsessive and butthurt mouth again, doesn't have the balls to admit he was wrong and, once he can't even attempt to make a logical, honest or accurate argument anymore, will declare that he was "joking" or really "doesn't care" about the issue at all. Watch.

Or, just as likely, he's a religious bigot and would not be so incredibly slow as to deny the obvious problem if anyone but me had posted about it and the MD was anything but Christian.

No matter, at least one hospital manager already thinks the MD is out of line - I wasn't the first to complain as it turns out - and, being way more socially, healthcare, politically, legally and ethically savvy than Seth Milner - not that it's saying much - just as O Really also is, I'd put the odds at around 90% that the MD will be shut down or let go and Seth Milner will be a looozer yet again.

Sent today:

Re the sensitive topic we discussed Monday morning. Unlikely, but there's the possibility in today's America that this could blow up to a florist/baker/wedding photographer/birth control insurance style mess. There's a huge misunderstanding out there as to what "religious freedom" really means. You have my sympathies, boss, and I'm glad I'm not you.

It's occurred to me that I (and _____?) could have a private, tactful and respectful conversation with him, speaking only for myself/ourselves. I'd have no problem with doing so. On the one hand, this could theoretically resolve the situation without anything becoming "official". On the other hand, it's a _____ policy issue and it could be said that talking to you and passing on any further patient/family complaints is as far as we should go. Let me/us know if you think the former might be the smartest course.

Have you thought about talking with _____? As a chaplain who has always seemed wise to me, he may have a unique perspective and/or ability to resolve things to everyone's satisfaction.

[O Really]

There's a reason for the old advice to avoid discussions of religion and politics among groups of co-workers or others you may not be real friends with. Has nothing to do with rights or offense, just simple good sense and reasonable etiquette.

[Seth Milner]

Hospitals have always been happy to call your minister - or a minister of your preferred variety, and many have chapels or quiet spaces for families to pray or whatever they choose to do....

Plus, as I posted originally many, many healthcare workers will pray with a patient and/or family if they request it and I'm fine with that. I've even stood quietly with my eyes closed and head bowed a few times.

Maybe Seth Milner would be accepting of it if he got pulled over by a cop and not see it as inappropriate, abusive or intimidating if the cop said: "You broke the law, sir. Before we move on to discuss how and the penalties, do you mind if we (pray to Jesus, Allah, Trump or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) or (do this Wiccan or Voodoo ceremony)?"
"..do you mind if we . . ." meaning I have the option of saying yes or no. Meaning I'm not being forced to participate.

Or, more likely based on his history here, Seth Milner is not so incredibly slow as to not see the problem with a person in power imposing his religion upon a captive and/or needy audience. Rather, he wanted to whine at me, stuck his foot in his obsessive and butthurt mouth again, doesn't have the balls to admit he was wrong and, once he can't even attempt to make a logical, honest or accurate argument anymore, will declare that he was "joking" or really "doesn't care" about the issue at all. Watch.
Poor baby. It's always about you, the poor, down-trodden, picked-on victim, isn't it? You didn't express your being upset over the offerings of prayer where you perform your own miracles, did you? (BTW . . .What was I wrong about?)

Or, just as likely, he's a religious bigot and would not be so incredibly slow as to deny the obvious problem if anyone but me had posted about it and the MD was anything but Christian.
My reply to the post had nothing to do with WHO posted it; rather the subject in this particular thread. I would have replied in the same manner regardless who started the topic. I thought it ridiculous that someone in your line of work and professionalism would get offended by a person of religion offering a comforting prayer to someone who was facing a possible catastrophic time in their life. The denomination of that religion is a moot point.

No matter, at east (sic) one hospital manager already thinks the MD is out of line - I wasn't the first to complain as it turns out - and, being way more socially, healthcare, politically, legally and ethically savvy than Seth Milner - not that it's saying much - just as O Really also is, I'd put the odds at around 90% that the MD will be shut down or let go and Seth Milner will be a looozer yet again.
As I said earlier, only a real asshole would complain, and I wasn't speaking of you specifically because you had already stated "others". Whether or not the MD retains his job is no concern of mine; if the hospital wants to lose a good doctor over some trivial , that too is no concern of mine as I can't do anything about it. If you and your co-workers would delight in the doctor losing his livelihood, then I say go for it, make the push . . . maybe you all will be much better employees because of it.

[Seth Milner]

Since I've come back to TN I've been thinking that maybe I will join up, or at least attend services at one of those snake handling churches. I've read in the past that those are not uncommon in these parts. Just the idea of "taking up serpents" has an inexplicable allure for me. See you Sunday.

I saw this bit on TV several years ago, neoplacebo; maybe you want to look them up? Looks like they're having a "hell of a time!" (BYOB)

[Seth Milner]

There's a reason for the old advice to avoid discussions of religion and politics among groups of co-workers or others you may not be real friends with. Has nothing to do with rights or offense, just simple good sense and reasonable etiquette.

As I so adamantly pointed out: You ask first; that's "just simple good sense and reasonable etiquette."