Guns, race, religion, terror, wingnut thread

[O Really]

There was a really good program on CNN last week - "Why They Hate Us" http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/08/opinions/ ... s-zakaria/

Well worth the time to watch. Short version - it's not just the US - it's Western culture, but we've made it worse than it had to be.

[rstrong]

Short version - it's not just the US - it's Western culture, but we've made it worse than it had to be.

Western culture as in the European powers invading, occupying and then leaving the area carved up with arbitrary borders that made no sense regarding where the different cultures and tribes were.

Still, I think that Gwynne Dyer's take is far more accurately describes what's happening today.

Gwynne Dyer: Why Are the Islamists Still Attacking the West?

It's not about us at all. 9/11 was about overthrowing Arab governments indirectly. And as for the latest attacks:

The only plausible explanation is the great split in the Islamist movement in 2014, when Islamic State broke away from Al-Qaeda. Since then there has been a ferocious competition between them both for recruits, and for the loyalty of Islamist organisations across the Muslim world. (The main Islamist organisations in both Egypt and Nigeria have switched their allegiance from Al-Qaeda to Islamic State in the past two years).

In this competition, the best and cheapest way of showing that your organisation is tougher, more dedicated, more efficient than the other lot is to kill Westerners in spectacular terrorist attacks. So, for example, Al-Qaeda sponsored the “Charlie Hebdo” attack in Paris in February, 2015, and Islamic State replied with the much bigger attack in Paris last November.

[Vrede too]

... Western culture as in the European powers invading, occupying and then leaving the area carved up with arbitrary borders that made no sense regarding where the different cultures and tribes were....

Not to mention ongoing military, commercial, economic, entertainment and political hegemony. Of course, not all of it is malicious or even intentional, but it's no surprise that some people resist.

[Vrede too]

So, find just about any discussion of Orlando and these questions arise:

What is wrong with Islam that some become so radicalized?
What can be done to keep them from becoming so radicalized or stop them from engaging in terror attacks if they are radicalized?

These are legit questions as long as the discussion is accurate and honest. Often, though, the answer from the bigots is "Deport Muslims" or "Prevent Muslims from entering the country".

In contrast, when the shooter is a con or Christian most of the discussion is about his (it's almost always a male) mental health and personal characteristics. Why don't we see:

What is wrong with Christianity that some become so radicalized?
What can be done to keep them from becoming so radicalized or stop them from engaging in terror attacks if they are radicalized?
"Deport Christians" or "Prevent Christians from entering the country".

What is wrong with rightwingers that some become so radicalized?
What can be done to keep them from becoming so radicalized or stop them from engaging in terror attacks if they are radicalized?
"Deport rightwingers" or "Prevent rightwingers from entering the country".

Similarly:

What is wrong with homophobes that some become so radicalized?
What can be done to keep them from becoming so radicalized or stop them from engaging in terror attacks if they are radicalized?
"Deport homophobes" or "Prevent homophobes from entering the country".

Or, for shooters of any religion why don't we see:

What is wrong with gunhuggers that some become so radicalized?
What can be done to keep them from becoming so radicalized or stop them from engaging in terror attacks if they are radicalized?
"Deport gunhuggers " or "Prevent gunhuggers from entering the country".

Owen Jones walks off Sky News show after hosts deny Orlando massacre was homophobic (VIDEO)

[Seth Milner]

He was an Isil inspired terrorist, plain and simple, and if homophobic, likely learned it from his 'religion'.

Could very well be, but one phone call in the midst of mass murder hardly confirms "Inspired".
It doesn't deny it either.

For all we know at this point, along with his being an unstable domestic abuser, the shooter was motivated by his homophobia while Islamic radicalism, which there's scant evidence for in his history so far, is just an excuse. Why do you believe without question what mass murderers say?
Why do you believe your opinion is the only one that counts?

So far, it sounds like the shooter was an American gunhugging, homophobic believer. If we weren't so PC we'd kick all the ammosexual fundy bigots out.
A believer in what? Are you saying that because someone believes in a God, that automatically makes them homophobic?

I still think we should exercise an abundance of caution and kick all ammosexual fundy bigots out.
Kick them out from where? Where's the "tolerance" and "rights" you're always foaming at the mouth about?

Je suis Florida homosexuels . . . "Florida I am gay"
I suspected as much; some time ago, but that's your business, I don't care.

Seriously?

[Wneglia]

I guess I rushed to judgment about the Orlando shooter. There were probably many factors at play, especially that he might have been gay.

This would support Verde's post in the homophobic thread:

Homophobes Likely To Be Closet Gays

[Vrede too]

Thanks.

Could be, being closeted and self-loathing would explain his long history of irrational rage and possibly his desperation to convince the world that this was about his being a jihadi.

I wonder when homerfobe will snap.

[billy.pilgrim]

No one is seriously proposing a "ban on firearms", and it won't ever be enacted and wouldn't survive the courts if it was. That's just gunhugger fear mongering.

True true, although some people legitimately want that to happen. It won't, you're right.

In the case of this Orlando massacre, I don't think there was a way to have prevented it. The guy passed background checks, obtained his weapons legally. The only way to have prevented this massacre was an outright ban.

For the record: I do agree with strict background checks.

What background checks did he pass?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... d-nothing/

And I'm assuming the background checks he passed to purchase his guns, unless he bought them illegally, in which case he would've done anyway had there been some kind of ban in place.

In Florida there would have been a 3 day check for the pistol

None for the military assault rifle that I know of.

[Vrede too]

Also, he could have bought both perfectly legally and without any background check or 3 day wait at all as long as it was from a private seller rather than a federally licensed dealer.

[Seth Milner]

I guess I rushed to judgment about the Orlando shooter. There were probably many factors at play, especially that he might have been gay. This would support Verde's post in the homophobic thread.

Could be, being closeted and self-loathing would explain his long history of irrational rage and possibly his desperation to convince the world that this was about his being a jihadi.

Your reply to Wneglia leads me to wonder why homosexuals chose the term "gay" to describe their sexual orientation. I have known many homosexuals who lived frustrated lives, and you always read about "closeted, self-loathing" feelings in homosexuals. That doesn't sound like a gay life to me.

I lead, pretty much, a happy, fun-filled life, but because of the homosexual use of the word, I never say I'm gay; I stick with "happy".

[billy.pilgrim]

language is constantly changing

be cool man, it's all groovy

[Vrede too]

Guessing what billy.pilgrim is referring to, I went ahead and opened Seth Milner's posts anticipating giggles. I wasn't disappointed.

... As another poster aptly put it: The word gay, in reference to homosexuals, was hijacked to describe other than happiness. A big change in our social structure.

Are you and "another poster" really whining about "A big change in our social structure", actually just a change in word meaning (you fail English, again), that occurred well before you were born?

Gay: Sexualization

The word may have started to acquire associations of immorality as early as the 14th century, but had certainly acquired them by the 17th. By the late 17th century it had acquired the specific meaning of "addicted to pleasures and dissipations", an extension of its primary meaning of "carefree" implying "uninhibited by moral constraints". A gay woman was a prostitute, a gay man a womanizer, and a gay house a brothel. The use of gay to mean "homosexual" was in origin merely an extension of the word's sexualized connotation of "carefree and uninhibited", which implied a willingness to disregard conventional or respectable sexual mores. Such usage, documented as early as the 1920s, was likely present before the 20th century, although it was initially more commonly used to imply heterosexually unconstrained lifestyles, as in the once-common phrase "gay Lothario", or in the title of the book and film The Gay Falcon (1941), which concerns a womanizing detective whose first name is "Gay". The "gaya ciencia" was a Provençal/French/Castilian term for poetry. Similarly, Fred Gilbert and G. H. MacDermott's music hall song of the 1880s, "Charlie Dilke Upset the Milk" – "Master Dilke upset the milk/When taking it home to Chelsea;/ The papers say that Charlie's gay/Rather a wilful wag!" – referred to Sir Charles Dilke's alleged heterosexual impropriety. Giving testimony in court in 1889, the rentboy John Saul stated: "I occasionally do odd-jobs for different gay people." ...

A passage from Gertrude Stein's Miss Furr & Miss Skeene (1922) is possibly the first traceable published use of the word to refer to a homosexual relationship. According to Linda Wagner-Martin (Favored Strangers: Gertrude Stein and her Family (1995) the portrait "featured the sly repetition of the word gay, used with sexual intent for one of the first times in linguistic history," and Edmund Wilson (1951, quoted by James Mellow in Charmed Circle (1974) agreed. For example:

They were ...gay, they learned little things that are things in being gay, ... they were quite regularly gay.
— Gertrude Stein, 1922

...

You fail research, again.

http://www.blueridgedebate.com/viewtopi ... ury#p61844

Whiny Seth Milner fails comprehension, again. That explains:

Headline: After Many Years of Ugly Anti-Gay Rhetoric, Hate-Blogger Jim Hoft Announces He’s Gay
Maybe I missed something, but I read the article, and no where did I see he announced he was a homosexual. I did read this:

"I’ve been a conservative activist for years. But today I’m coming out as a conservative gay activist."
That's hardly saying "I'm a homosexual".

"coming out ... gay" = "hardly ... homosexual"

:?: :?: :?:



http://www.blueridgedebate.com/viewtopi ... ual#p62091

Seth Milner has his own "special" language.

[Seth Milner]

Guessing what billy.pilgrim is referring to, I went ahead and opened Seth Milner's posts anticipating giggles. I wasn't disappointed.
See what you miss when you deprive yourself?

Seth Milner has his own "special" language.
Pot meets kettle.

[Seth Milner]

language is constantly changing

be cool man, it's all groovy

Like, wow, man, that's just too far out there, actually.

[Vrede too]

“Below is a picture of Luis Omar Ocasio-Capo. Omar, as his friends and family called him, was a Latino man gunned down at an LGBTQ bar in Orlando last weekend. He was 20-years-old.



Today my dear friend Melinda and I had the sad privilege of attending to his grandmother on our flight as she made her journey to Orlando to join her family during this unspeakable time.

Knowing she was making this hard journey alone, JetBlue employees made sure to be at her side every step of the way. Melinda stood quietly by her wheelchair while we waited until it was time to board. Kellie, the gate agent, boarded with her and helped get her settled. Melinda and I gave her a blanket, a pillow, a box of tissues and water so she could be as comfortable as possible. She was understandably distraught, but met us with kindness and gentleness. And gratitude.

But here’s where our flight got truly inspiring. I had the idea to pass around a piece of paper to everyone on board and invite them to sign it for this grieving grandmother. I talked it over with Melinda and she started the process from the back of the plane. As we took beverage orders, we whispered a heads up about the plan as we went.

Halfway through, Melinda called me, “Kel, I think you should start another paper from the front. Folks are writing PARAGRAPHS.” So I did. Then we started one in the middle. Lastly, running out of time on our hour and fifteen minute flight, we handed out pieces of paper to everyone still waiting.

When we gathered them together to present them to her, we didn’t have just a sheet of paper covered in names, which is what I had envisioned. Instead, we had page after page after page after page of long messages offering condolences, peace, love and support. There were even a couple of cash donations, and more than a few tears.

When we landed, I made an announcement that the company had emailed to us earlier in the morning to use as an optional addition to our normal landing announcement, which states “JetBlue stands with Orlando.” Then with her permission and at the request of a couple of passengers, we offered a moment of silence in Omar’s memory.

As we deplaned, EVERY SINGLE PERSON STOPPED TO OFFER HER THEIR CONDOLENCES. Some just said they were sorry, some touched her hand, some hugged her, some cried with her. But every single person stopped to speak to her, and not a single person was impatient at the slower deplaning process.

I am moved to tears yet again as I struggle to put our experience into words. In spite of a few hateful, broken human beings in this world who can all too easily legally get their hands on mass assault weapons – people ARE kind. People DO care. And through our customers’ humanity today, and through the generosity of this wonderful company I am so grateful to work for, I am hopeful that someday soon we can rally together to make the world a safer place for all.

I will never forget today. ‪#‎Orlandoproud‬”

https://www.yahoo.com/news/crew-flight- ... 04868.html

[Vrede too]

Christina Grimmie, Pulse Nightclub, toddler killed by gator at Disney resort - Has Orlando had its 3 bad things now?

[Seth Milner]

Looks as though alligators will have to be banned; or Disney shut down.

I'm willing to bet that Disney will be paying out the ass for this horrible incident. Those "No Swimming" signs just don't cut it.

[O Really]

I'm sure there will be some settlement - keeps the issue from going on and on unfavorably, but in any case, Disney can handle lawsuits. There are law firms around Orlando that have a specialty in suing Disney. (for real) I'd agree that if the "No Swimming" signs are all there are, that there should be others. Typically, there are "Beware the alligators" signs or a "Don't feed the alligators" sign with a drawing of one hauling away a dog or kid. But there's a chance of finding an alligator in any puddle of water in Florida - parks, golf courses, housing development retention ponds, whatever. Public access to areas of close proximity of alligators isn't unusual. For example, Bird Rookery Swamp, has a well-traveled 12-mile trail through the park. Alligators are all over, often lying in or right beside the trail. I've seen idiots walk their chihuahuas right past them, not seeming to realize that's like passing a donut under a cop's nose. Disney has "cast members" who are licensed to remove, relocate or kill if necessary any alligators creating a hazard. But there was a combination there that might not ever occur again - alligator in the right place, small kid walking in shallow water at the wrong time. But unlike the incident with the gorilla, I don't think the parents were in the wrong to have let the kid wade. How many people walk by that water over the years? How many even see an alligator there, much less get attacked? On the attacked, that would be "none." But it's a horrible story that no amount of settlement will cure.

[Vrede too]

... But there was a combination there that might not ever occur again - alligator in the right place, small kid walking in shallow water at the wrong time....

Apparently, dusk, which this was, is the worst. I didn't know that, even with all the time I've spent in gator areas. I don't recall it being mentioned on any gator warning signs.

I don't know about a settlement. Despite the 1 million gators in FL and millions of residents and visitors, attacks on humans are very rare and deaths almost unheard of. I'm not sure that the parents would win in court or what that low (?) probability would do to Disney's willingness to settle. I'm not in their shoes, but I don't think I'd sue over what was really just tragic bad luck.

[O Really]

Agreed on the lawsuit, but I think they'll offer a good bit just to make the issue go away publicly.