The LEO thread

[Seth Milner]

Hey, what do the unanimous experts in the field know anyhow, right?

Nothing, really. Certainly not compared to anecdotal "evidence" that "my daddy spanked me and it didn't do me no harm so I'm gonna spank my kid."
There are some for whom myths will always trump science.

Well, you can spew, spit, and piss all you like. It's not difficult to spot a kid who has no discipline, and myths have nothing to do with it. Discipline doesn't always mean a spanking.

[O Really]

Well, there are "experts" and there are "experts." On the topic of child beating, I tend to rely on the opinions of medical professionals, including psychologists, psychiatrists, and those who have studied the issue over time and have published credible studies, and have no political ax to grind. Oh wait. One of those would be my late father.

I also consider the expertise of people who train animals such as dogs and horses for a living. How many of those do you suppose think it's an effective learning devise to beat the animal?

What the issue really is, is not just whether beating can work sometimes or can sometimes change behaviour. The issue is what is the best manner and tools and approach to motivate a child to do what you want them to do. Seems the same principle would apply to kids as to adults: "what gets rewarded, gets done." And fear motivates only to the extent that a person does what is necessary to avoid the beating.

And there's a reason it's considered a joke to say, "the beatings will continue until morale improves."

[O Really]

BTW, Seth, you keep pointing out a symptom of a problem, i.e. "lack of discipline" and related poor behaviour. You really believe the only thing keeping those kids from being little pillars of the community is a few beatings? What do you think is most effective in getting a kid to do what you want him/her to do?

[Seth Milner]

BTW, Seth, you keep pointing out a symptom of a problem, i.e. "lack of discipline" and related poor behaviour.
Poor behavior generally is a result of "lack of discipline"

You really believe the only thing keeping those kids from being little pillars of the community is a few beatings?
Sticking their nose in a corner or denying ice cream works better?

What do you think is most effective in getting a kid to do what you want him/her to do?
You must have missed this: "Discipline doesn't always mean a spanking"

Just curious, what would you do if your kid cursed and spat at you? What would have happened to you had you cursed and spat at your parent(s?)

[Vrede too]

Hey, what do the unanimous experts in the field know anyhow, right?

Such as yourself?

One doesn't have to be an expert to express an expert opinion. Some people actually read.

Well, I am a medical professional, though I'm not a psychologist nor a child development professional, but I do deal with children, psych patients and autistics all the time. So, your question is a stupid one and you should have known it. I've never found violence to be useful with any of these folks. That said, I wouldn't presume to call myself an expert on discipline. As O Really says, I read and accept the unanimous opinion of the experts that Seth Milner rejects.

Then, there's common sense and human decency. No one but the ugliest of humans would ever advocate beating autistic children. They're neither responsible nor capable of controlling their behavior like we are.

[O Really]

Just curious, what would you do if your kid cursed and spat at you? What would have happened to you had you cursed and spat at your parent(s?)
[/color]

[/quote]
As to the first question, I can't say for sure because it never happened, but I know I wouldn't have beaten him. As to the second, I can't relate. Not that my parents and I always got along, but they built in certain norms and habits - daily and consistently. One does not yell at people, family or otherwise. One is respectful, even in disagreement. Only riff-raff have poor table manners. I could disagree with them, but I had to defend my position in a polite manner and with substantial fact/evidence/support. I got rewarded for doing things they liked. They liked good grades. If I got good grades, I got nice cars, clothes, and a loose chain. Bad grades (certainly anything less than a B or too many B's) sent me to Hell. The problem doesn't start with some kid cursing or spitting. It's a bigger issue than one instance, and isn't going to be fixed with a beating. The beating may - may - keep him from doing those exact things again, but don't teach him any positive alternatives.

[Vrede too]

Cursing and spitting are verbally and physically violent acts. Only a moron thinks that the way to permanently stop something is by demonstrating that the same thing is effective in the short term if you're bigger. Perhaps the most important thing parents or any of us can do is to model behavior, not try to enforce it violently while demonstrating the opposite of the desired behavior.

Physical discipline was stopped on me pretty early. I grew up to be nonviolent, independent, adventurous, compassionate and active in the community. I helped out my dying parents, even moving across the country for one, and chose a career where I often strive to remedy the effects of physical violence. Seems to have been the right choice. Oh, and I never cursed and spat at my parents. Can't say what I would have done if they were violent ones.

[O Really]

No wrath, Seth. You're right, a whack in the behind does teach lessons.
And a time out in the bedroom or corner does?

Yes, actually it does. Kids like to do whatever they like to do and with the toys and stuff they enjoy and with their friends or siblings. Symbolically (and literally for a short time) banishing them from the things that are important to them certainly can bring about attitude change, which is what drives behaviour change. Also, enforced behaviour change that is rewarded, also brings about attitude change. Depending on age, you could deprive them of company, stuff, or privileges - whatever is important to them, and point out exactly what they need to do to resume their rewards. Too many people don't bother to reward what they expect to be "what he's supposed to do," but doing what he's supposed to is exactly what should be rewarded. All prospective parents should be required to take a course in Vroom.

[Vrede too]

Maybe if the the unanimous pediatric experts smacked Seth Milner around he'd see the light.

[Vrede too]

Four officers fatally shot during police protest in downtown Dallas

The causality count as of 11:30 p.m. local time:

3 — Dallas police officers deceased
1 — Dallas Area Rapid Transit officer deceased
8 — officers wounded
1 — civilian wounded

Crap.

CNN is saying 7 wounded cops. I'm not sure about the discrepancy.

11-12 cops dead or wounded, just one civilian wounded, ex-military shooters?

[Seth Milner]

Maybe if the the unanimous pediatric experts smacked Seth Milner around he'd see the light.

[Vrede too]

... ex-military shooters?

At the moment,
Five officers killed and seven wounded, two civilians wounded.
One shooter, killed by a police robot (first time in US history), Army veteran.
At least one of the slain officers was a Navy veteran.

EM Simpson @charlie_simpson

I don't want black men shot at traffic stops. I don't want cops shot by snipers. I don't want kids shot at school. I don't want any of this.

[Vrede too]

'Appalled': Minnesota Governor Says Philando Castile Would Be Alive If He Were White

[Seth Milner]

'Appalled': Minnesota Governor Says Philando Castile Would Be Alive If He Were White

He's absolutely right. Why else would the cop have his weapon out for a broken tail-light? Would his weapon been drawn had the driver been White?

On another matter, something stinks up there is Asheville, re the cop-involved shooting; the news is full of pissed-off family comments and talk of legal actions; that Black lady that reports the news on channel 13 phrased the shooting as the "Black man" that was "gunned down" by the "white police officer". (wouldn't that be deemed a racist or inflammatory remark that would further inflame the situation?)

Initial reports stated the perp had an AR-15, yet nothing more has been said about that. The lady chief has sat stoned-faced during any questioning, and I've only seen one very brief glance of an assault weapon. Other news reports on recent shootings have been fairly descriptive. Asheville's case appears to be clouded in some sort of secrecy. Not good; not good at all.

[Vrede too]

Fixing police-community relations will take hard work, bigotry of all kinds ain't gonna end soon, and we can't catch all the psychopaths and simply evil ahead of time. So, why do we accept their easy access to a tool that's as convenient and effective as assault-style rifles?

[billy.pilgrim]

Fixing police-community relations will take hard work, bigotry of all kinds ain't gonna end soon, and we can't catch all the psychopaths and simply evil ahead of time. So, why do we accept their easy access to a tool that's as convenient and effective as assault-style rifles?

I don't see that is has so much to do with race as with the foundational understanding by LE that they are above so many of our laws and that their inappropriate behaviors will not be reported by fellow officers.

Start small and go from there. Maybe even require them to obey speed limits when not responding to emergency, or get out of the left lane when going under the speed limit.

Seeing yourself as above traffic laws is an introduction to doing whatever the fuck you want wherever you want. It also causes at least some of us to lose respect for them.

[Vrede too]

Agreed, but I chose "bigotry" rather than "race" so as to include Orlando and Dallas. That said, the racist part of policing is a big chunk of the issue.

As an aside, I'd also add that ending the costly and failed drug war will contribute greatly to improving police-community relations. That's on both the pols and the cops that are lobbying them to continue it.

[Seth Milner]

Killer robot used by Dallas police opens ethical debate
You gotta be friggin' kidding me! Guy's got the police pinned down with automatic fire after killing 5 of them and shooting up others, and now the whine is out about killing the son-of-a-bitch with a robot? Give me a fuckin' break!

[billy.pilgrim]

Killer robot used by Dallas police opens ethical debate
You gotta be friggin' kidding me! Guy's got the police pinned down with automatic fire after killing 5 of them and shooting up others, and now the whine is out about killing the son-of-a-bitch with a robot? Give me a fuckin' break!

I didn’t go to the link, but I do have a problem with using robots and bombs to execute the bad guys.

[Seth Milner]

I don't.

No matter who his victims were, cops or civilians, whites or Blacks; if the only way a killer is going to be stopped because he probably has a suicide by cop mentality, then I say blow his ass into the next week; give him his wish. PTSD or not, he must be stopped.

"Executed" means planned; this guy had to be stopped. Period.